Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: This is Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, and you're listening to the Love, Happiness and Success Podcast.
[Like Calling Up Thunder by The Gun Club]
The Gun Club with Like Calling Up Thunder, a song about embracing your personal power if there ever was one. Because that is our topic today. If you've caught recent episodes, you will notice that this is part of a larger theme. I've been talking a lot lately about feeling good about yourself, feeling self-confident, restoring your self-esteem because if you don't feel good about you, and if you're not advocating for yourself, no one else is going to. Today's topic is really all about how to get more empowered at work, and it requires some pre-work to get into a place where you're feeling that level of confidence.
If you haven't yet a great starting point, it could be to take my online self-esteem quiz. You can access that by texting the word, ESTEEM—E-S-T-E-E-M—to the number 55444. It'll give you an overview of where you are currently in terms of your personal levels of self-esteem, and it will give you some directions on where to build yourself up so that you feel as good about yourself as possible and ready to tackle the world, take on, perhaps a boss, who is not fully aware of the magnificence of your power and abilities, and advocate for yourself in all different areas of your life including friendships, personal relationships, and more. And thanks to, for all of you that have been sending your questions and letting me know what you'd like to hear more about. Today's topic on feeling more empowered at work is a direct result of your advocating your needs to me through our website at growingself.com, by tracking me down on Instagram @drlisamariebobby, and of course, Facebook at Dr. Lisa Bobby.
So let's do this, you guys. Let's talk about empowerment at work. I think, on some level, we can all relate to the experience of feeling disempowered. You know, feeling like maybe we don't have influence or that our ideas or even our needs and rights are not being respected by other people the way that they should be. I know that this can happen in romantic relationships or friendships or family relationships, certainly, but a place where it often happens for people is on the job. And we don't talk about this experience of disempowerment, I think, as much as we do when it comes to personal experiences of being disempowered. And I think it's also the case that when people are in careers that are perhaps dominated by individuals who have more influence and power than you do, this experience of being disempowered, and then it's difficult to get traction and earn respect and authority, is even more challenging.
And so, if you can relate to this, and if you have been struggling to gain a footing in a career, or if you'd like to feel more powerful and secure in your current role, today's podcast is all about helping you navigate this very narrow path with both confidence and courage. We're going to be talking about things you can do to increase your personal power and authority and also some inner strategies that you can use to help you feel more secure and empowered as you do. And to help us with this, my guest today is Mory Fontanez.
Mory is an Iranian-American purpose coach and the CEO of 822 Group, a values-based business consultant company. Mory has had a long career in Corporate America and knows a lot about personal empowerment, particularly for women, people of color, or other historically marginalized groups who are trying to be powerful in systems that are not always receptive to their empowerment. And she has lots of ideas about things we can all do to help us allow our differences to make us more powerful and more respected and authoritative than we even know. So Mory, thank you for being here with me and talking about this.
Mory Fontanez: Thank you so much for having me. I am delighted to be here.
Dr. Lisa: We are going to have an interesting, interesting conversation today. I just know it.
Dr. Lisa: Well, I'm so interested to get your take on the subject of empowerment, particularly for people who are struggling to feel powerful and who are in systems that don't easily allow for that many times. But before we jump into that, let's just start by talking about power and what we mean by that. And so, could you speak a little bit just about what it means to have personal power and, in particular, to have empowerment on the job. Like, what do you view as being that experience?
Mory: Yeah, I love that question on personal power. And I feel that you know, over the last few years and really digging into coaching, I've really simplified it to this, which is, it's to be cognizant or aware of your value and to come from that awareness. I think, oftentimes, when we are not in our power, it is that we are not coming from the awareness of how truly valuable we are to that person, that situation, that job, or that team. So it's simply just awareness of your value and coming from that place.
Dr. Lisa: And so do you feel that awareness of your own power and your own worth is enough? Or is there also an intersection? I mean, I'm thinking right now, you know, of people that I have certainly worked with as clients, who have been working with great diligence and sincerity in organizations that are dominated by people who have more power than they do, and I'm particularly thinking about, you know, younger female clients I have had who have had a management positions, frequently in tech-based companies that are founded by, and all the CEO level executives are not just men—they're white men. And often, white men have a particular social class that is very privileged—they've gotten to good schools, they know how to talk to people, they know all the unwritten rules—and it is a very intimidating position to be in. And I guess what I'm asking is that internal, subjective confidence in your own power enough? Or is there an actual power differential in these situations that also needs to be navigated?
Mory: You know, I love that question because we can get into this definition of power and really dissect it, but I always tell people this—true power is actually a very stable force that comes from that internal awareness. What we experience as power, especially in dynamics at work, particularly with those that have had structural power for a long time, you know, when you look into those dynamics, and you look into how that power has been held on to, what you see beneath that is a lack of that personal power—you see fear. And that is what drives the kind of power that we defined today is “This person has more power over me.” No, it's that there is a dynamic that's been created that we bought into that allows us to forget our own value and our own worth. And so, that then creates this dynamic of being disempowered.
Now, are there power structures? Absolutely. We cannot ignore them. But I am one that believes that with diligence and work, by tapping into that sense of value, you are at least able to change the dynamic. You are able to very organically, cellularly shift the way that you show up in those dynamics, which is the only way that those dynamics themselves will change over time. It’s that if each one of us, like dominoes, stops buying into this concept of power, that those that are in power are so afraid of losing, and so deeply want us to believe that.
Dr. Lisa: I see. So you're saying… that there certainly are power structures that need to be reckoned with and dealt with and that they will not change unless, first, you're able to kind of create in yourself that basic sense of your worth and your value and then begin behaving as such, and then your ability to do that will begin to kind of ripple out and change the power system around you to a degree. Is that it?
Mory: 100%. Yeah, absolutely.
Dr. Lisa: Okay. Well, I definitely want to dig in a little bit more to that.
Mory: Yeah, let's do that.
Dr. Lisa: But first, before we jump in, in your experience, do you find that it can be more difficult for some people to even like, have that internalized sense of their own power and value, and I'm thinking particularly, you know, people that have maybe been or stepped down socially. I believe women, people of color, minority women, or even like, you know, disabled individuals trying to make their way in a world of people that's dominated by able-bodied people. I mean, is it just like a bigger step to make for some, do you think? Or is it, in your experience, the same inner process?
Mory: It is absolutely a bigger step. I mean, there is systemic oppression that happens to those groups that you talked about. And you know, I really believe that when something has happened over and over for centuries, that passes on down to you in systems, in consequences, in your DNA—these are beliefs that have been so long held by your ancestors, that it is something that is almost intrinsic to who you are. And so, absolutely, I believe that that hill is much steeper. I am very heartened to see right now people chipping away at that hill. But I absolutely believe that for all of those groups you mentioned, it is a much more difficult step to take to just grab your own personal power. It's not that easy; there's so many systems that have to be dismantled. But it doesn't mean that in parallel, the work cannot begin to start to find that internal—I call it the seat of your power—to really find that throne and identify it first and foremost is so intrinsic, as the systems are changing and to help the system change as well.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense that it can be a bigger step. And it is, you know, the struggle is real, and I'm glad that you said that and, and also that it is not just possible but really necessary. And also, I think that there is, as you said, like more of an emerging awareness about power systems and how we function in them, and some of them are very subtle too.
Dr. Lisa: I mean, and I know that this shows up in organizations in a different way, but I had an experience where I was like, “Huh.” It was probably a couple of weeks ago, and so I am in the process of just obtaining a different—another credential that's possible for psychologists.
Dr. Lisa: There’s just advantages to doing that. And there's one organization that I began going through their application process, you know, you have to submit like all this documentation for my educational experience and like licensure and my APA-accredited internship site, and all that jazz, and like checked all their boxes and went down the list. And then at the very end, got this feedback that I did not qualify for this credential because my postdoctoral supervision was not in a—like in my field, there's often like a very structured postdoc year, where a newly graduated psychologist would go work at like a college counseling center or something and have like a very like, almost like a final year. My postdoc experience was through private practice, and so I had to pay out of pocket for supervision, and I could only do so once every other week. So I got my hours over two years with supervision every other week as opposed to weekly, which is the normal, like a standard postdoc. And I was told that because my supervision was every other week instead of every week, I didn't qualify.
And what though that started bringing up for me and other people that I've been talking to is that this organization is very subtly, and I think probably unknowingly, supporting that only psychologist candidates of a very particular socioeconomic group and like life experience are able to go through this little gap because a postdoc year is very difficult to do. Financially, you get paid nothing. And like in my case, if you have children and child care, like it's kind of impossible.
Mory: Right, right.
Dr. Lisa: And it's like because of this little requirement, you know, and I have a comparatively a very privileged background by class and race and all of this, and was still, like that door was shut. And just thinking about how these little rules and regulations in organizations can serve as gatekeepers and, really, like practical barriers sometimes for people to get ahead if they're not in a very specific social class ability to do certain things.
Dr. Lisa: And so, you know, it shows up in so many ways, and that wasn’t just for me.
Dr. Lisa: Like, I mean, and it was kind of a long-winded story, but like people who have higher hurdles than that, to be not just advancing in organizations but to like, first of all, craft this core message inside of themselves of, “You know, I'm actually good enough. My training was actually just as good as anybody else's, and maybe better in some ways, and here's why.”
Dr. Lisa: It's difficult to sustain that narrative.
Mory: It is. But you know what, without that awareness that you just mentioned around the system itself being taught.
Dr. Lisa: The system, yeah.
Mory: There is no change to the system, right? So I would argue that, especially as women, we were not empowered enough to even think that the system was flawed until recently. Right?
Dr. Lisa: That's such a good point. Yeah, because instead of like, slinking away and being like, “Okay,”—I am gonna need to write them a letter.
Mory: Right. Exactly. And you know what, that is empowerment. Now, just because the system has a massive gap in it doesn't mean that you are not empowered to do something about it. That is what I mean exactly by—you proved my point—the perception that these historical power structures have tried to give us that we don't have power. It's like, “That's just the way it is.” You know what? That is not just the way it is.
Dr. Lisa: No, it’s not.
Mory: And that is what people are proving.
Dr. Lisa: And that's what you're saying too. It's like the system does not give you power. No one else empowers you.
Dr. Lisa: You have to take it.
Mory: You take it.
Dr. Lisa: You take it.
Mory: Exactly. And you know what, we're seeing it. I mean, we're seeing it happen in these really, again, very historically disempowering industries. Look at the fashion industry right now, what's happening to it. Look at the beauty industry. Right? These were industries that are very exclusive. And you now see people awakening their consciousness, awakening to “Wait a minute. You can't tell me I can't be in that specific brand or industry because I look a certain way. That's not okay.” And that awareness is what's hitting these brands out of nowhere, and they don't know what to do with it because all of a sudden, people are aware that it's not okay. It's not just the way it is, and that they have the power to do something about it, and it is transforming a lot of these industries out there.
Dr. Lisa: That is awesome. I love it.
Dr. Lisa: Okay. So with this premise in mind that power is something that starts inside of you, and it is something that you have to take for yourself, I'm curious to know if you have, in your own practice, or you know, in consulting with organizations, or people attempting to kind of manage this in their own careers, when someone is attempting to function in a, you know—not like Star Wars Deathstar like ultra-disempowering system—but it's kind of a garden variety, like tone-deaf disempowering, what does it look like for them if they're not able to reshape their narrative and their expectations in turn? Like, what happens to people when they aren't feeling empowered both professionally but even personally? You know, because my sense is that it bleeds over, but I'm curious to know what your…
Mory: Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, I will tell you. Let's start with the professional and just the impact on the organization as a whole. The first thing that happens is a complete loss of productivity and creativity.
Dr. Lisa: Whoa, complete loss.
Mory: Absolutely. Because when people start to feel disempowered, they then stop believing in themselves—and that is all it takes to not be creative or innovative any longer. And if you're not able to do that for an organization, then it impacts your ability to produce, to do your job to its maximum quality. Now, in fact, there are a lot of people out there who can function at 50%, and it looks like 100. Right? So we've been getting by—this is what I tell leaders and executives and CEOs all the time when we come in, it's like, “Yeah, you're getting by, but what would full productivity look like? That would be 50% greater than what you're seeing right now. You're just seeing them get by.” So productivity, creativity, and innovation suffer hugely.
And then, I love your point about it bleeding over because it does. First of all, it affects your perception of yourself, which your value becomes challenged. And when that happened, I've actually seen it come out in one of two ways in other parts of that person's life, right? One is either you don't trust yourself, and so you allow other people in other areas of your life to take advantage or to cross your boundaries and to disempower you. Or, you go to the opposite extreme, which is that you feel like those other areas are where you must exert control. And so all of the stress and frustration that you have comes out sideways to people who had nothing to do with you feeling so disempowered to begin with, or, you know, that’s same as saying, “The oppressed become the oppressor.”
Dr. Lisa: Yeah.
Mory: Because it has to come out in some form. And then what happens is you cultivate leaders who take on these really malignant behavior because they believe that that's the way to succeed. And so going full circle back to the organization itself, you've now created a culture, a system, that the only way for success is to behave in these disempowering ways towards others. So, it becomes very cyclical.
Dr. Lisa: Oh, my god. That is just so interesting. And I have to tell you, I have not thought about this in the same way before, Mory. Okay, so that when someone feels really disempowered and voiceless, first of all, they don't believe in themselves enough to be able to like generate ideas and be productive because that, in itself, takes a certain amount of confidence.
Dr. Lisa: I mean, even if you're putting together a report or presentation, like you have to be putting yourself out there and like, “These are my ideas and this is why I think this would be helpful.” And if you are feeling, you know, stepped on, it's hard to even do that. And from that space, though, of feeling kind of disempowered, like it's worse for the organization, but also personally, either people just like carry the sense of being a doormat everywhere or they kind of overcompensate and try to be maybe more controlling or more belligerent in ways that are not actually helpful, either personally or/and—maybe it's an and—when they do, over time, managed to kind of gain a foothold in their career, in the organization, they carry that kind of toxic controll-y disempowerring. It's almost like power hoarding or something, directly because of their own disempowerment, like it's a wound that just keeps on festering.
Mory: Exactly. Correct.
Dr. Lisa: That is so interesting, and which, you know, one of the questions that I have for you, it goes on to like toxic workplace cultures. And you're saying that, you know, between the lines here, to cultivate empowerment and to help people feel more valued and respected will, over time, create a healthier company culture overall because you have like healthy people that are…
Dr. Lisa: …you know, kind of percolating up through management roles. Or am I oversimplifying this?
Mory: No, that’s exactly right, and that is very difficult for leaders to do. And we can get into this later if it makes sense, but that's because leaders have all sorts of things they have to deal with in order to have the competence to deal with an empowered culture, right? Because having a disempowered culture feeds the ego in a way that having an empowered culture challenges your ego. And so, there's a lot of work, that's where I come in with a CEO. It’s like, “Let’s work on this with you, so that you can get over this obstacle, so that your team can become empowered.”
Dr. Lisa: That is awesome.
Dr. Lisa: Okay, so let's take this then piece-by-piece. Because, you know, we have many, certainly, career coaching or executive coaching clients at Growing Self who are in those leadership positions, and I think would be very interested to hear your thoughts about how they themselves can create healthy organizations that will kind of do that inside work to be able to tolerate the indignities of having an empowered workforce.
Mory: I love that.
Dr. Lisa: Or arguing with them. Okay, so we'll talk about that. But, first of all, let's talk about, you know, if we think of people who are on the ground floor, so to speak, of said organization, and they have gotten the memo that they are worthy of respect and appreciation, and that they do know what they're talking about, and they're doing a good job, and they've internalized that, and they are in the system that maybe does not fully appreciate all that they can do yet. What are some strategies that you have seen to be effective for people as they begin to shift the narrative, perhaps not inside of themselves, but around them, so that they're able to kind of create power and influence and help people recognize their own value? Like, what works?
Mory: If you are in a toxic work environment in order to be empowered?
Dr. Lisa: Let's say, because I think…I mean, I've talked to people who are in like—capital T—toxic environment that may be irredeemable, and we can certainly talk about that too.
Mory: Correct. Yes.
Dr. Lisa: But let's say garden variety—like not the most horrible, not the best—like a standard-issue company that you need to advocate for yourself in order to be empowered. Let's say that.
Mory: I think that it starts with really understanding your own triggers. And the reason that that's important is because then you can depersonalize whatever is happening in that environment. And what I mean by that is we all have things that have happened to us that created storylines, you know, that’s better than me, of course. I'm sure you help people with this. But really, those storylines create triggers for us, and if we are not aware of them, people very easily push our buttons; they press those triggers, right. So, “I've grown up thinking I'm not smart. I'm not valuable. I'm not wanted. I'm lazy,” right? Whatever these narratives are, if we're not cognizant of them, if we're not looking at them and aware of them, someone can say something to you at work, or you can be in an environment where people feed off of triggering you—because if they trigger you, then they've got you, right? And if you can depersonalize that by saying, “No, this is a trigger. It is not my truth today,” you, first of all, remove that power. So that is the first and most important tool.
Dr. Lisa: Okay.
Mory: Then it comes to really getting to the heart of your value and your values. The difference being, your value is just knowledge of something, anything that you know you bring to the table in that environment. What is it that you know you bring to the table that is valuable? And then your values are, what is it you stand for and believe in strongly? And I don't think people do enough work to really examine their values. And that's where we find ourselves making trade-offs in jobs or in relationships where we don't even know what it is we stand for, so how can we uphold a boundary around it?
Dr. Lisa: Yeah.
Mory: And then that's the third piece, which is boundaries. Once you've gotten really clear on, “These are my triggers. This is trigger versus reality. This is my value, and this is what I stand for,” that's when you have to get really good at, “Okay, these are my boundaries then. If the person asks me to do their work for the fifth night in a row, and I stay here later, is that me allowing them to tread on my boundaries? Yes. Do I do it because I need to feel valued? Probably.” Right?
But once you have that awareness, you don't need that validation anymore, and you're able to uphold your boundaries, which allows you to start to get into that seat of power because now you know, what your values are, and you're able to stand up for yourself and create boundaries that allow you to have a life and a working situation where you are at least feeling respected.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah, I could see how that would be really helpful to, I mean, the emotional regulation and what are my triggers and how do I counterbalance that narrative, what's important to me, that then allows you to advocate for yourself effectively. And as we're talking, you know, my background—so in addition to psychology—I do a lot of marriage and family therapy. And rule number one of systems theory, and I'm sure this probably comes up in your work too with organizational kinds of systems, is that if one little piece of a system all of a sudden starts behaving differently than it has been, say, maybe advocating for oneself or not taking on more work that they had in the past, the system will then work pretty hard to exert pressure on that individual to return to the way that they had been. And so, you see this a lot, like people and families where they have been, you know, perhaps not treated well by a family member, and all of a sudden they started setting healthy boundaries and the family's like, “Why are you being so mean to Uncle Joe?”
Dr. Lisa: You know, like, “What's gotten into you?” And there ‘s like pressure to return. So, do you see that happening organizationally? Or are people like, “Oh, okay. You're not gonna do my work for me anymore? So I'm just going to go ahead and do it myself without complaining that you stopped enabling me.”
Mory: Yeah, that would be so…
Dr. Lisa: Not that I would say that out loud, but you know.
Mory: I see that pressure every day, and I think that pressure becomes really dangerous because it really starts to threaten your sense of security. When people are in perceived, you know, positions of power over you, you then start to fear that you're going to lose that opportunity, that job, their respect. And so, that's where playing on your fear for upholding your boundaries becomes something that we go from lowercase t to capital T toxic, right. And I think to your point, that's when your little red flag needs to go off because if you're upholding a healthy boundary, right—you're not being disrespectful, number one. The other thing I wanted to mention is you're being accountable. Just because you have boundaries does not mean that you no longer have accountability.
Dr. Lisa: Sure.
Mory: You understand what it is your role is. You understand that if you make a mistake, you own it; if you succeed, you own it as accountability.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah.
Mory: If you're accountable, and you are doing your job, and you're upholding your boundaries, and people are making you feel as though you have to fear your security, then we've now transitioned into capital T toxic, and is that then the right space for you?
Dr. Lisa: Okay. Yeah.
Mory: And that's really important because the more people think that way, the more you start to transform the system, right? Because if people start to realize, “Well, if you're not going to allow me to have boundaries, and this then is not healthy for me,” And that happens more and more, and people have that awakening more and more, there's less people to pressure.
Dr. Lisa: Yep, and that's why we have unions. I'm thinking about that.
Mory: Yeah. Exactly.
Dr. Lisa: I mean, really, like collectivism is groups of workers being like, “Wait just a second. You're not actually going to work 18 hours a day until you kill us.” Yeah. No, but that's like strength of numbers, and I like it that you shared that if you are not able to set appropriate boundaries and have that be respected, that is a clear warning sign that this could be a capital T toxic environment and that you might need to be on a different plan.
Dr. Lisa: Okay, so what I want to talk more about toxic environments, but before we move into that, have you identified any strategies that make it a little bit easier for people to have influence and existing roles or set boundaries? And so I'm thinking, you know, things like managing up or like how you frame things to leaders that you're telling, “No, I'm actually not going to do that.” But are there ways to do it in a way that might have that go down a little bit easier? Or in your experience, is it just like, “Alright, people, here's what we're gonna do”?
Mory: Yeah. I have a little four-part equation, which starts with value and boundary.
Dr. Lisa: A four-part equation? Okay.
Mory: Yeah, which we've talked about. So the value plus boundaries, so you know your value, which means you're coming from a place of power, you have boundaries, so people are not going to cross them. And then you add in vulnerability, and that's where you're able to be, you know, really transparent and honest about where you're at, what your needs are, what needs aren't being met. You know, what it is like for you, your experience there, in a way that is just factual, right. You can just share, “This is my experience right now”—you're able to be vulnerable.
And then the fourth part is curiosity. And when I say curiosity, I find this to be one of the most effective tactics for managing up or dealing with a difficult colleague that's out there, which is why, you know, really getting curious about, “Why is it that you ask me to do this every day at 5pm? You know, what is it that you need? Why do you feel that speaking to the team that way is effective?” Really starting to interrogate, in a respectful way, that person’s methodology. Really truly with curiosity—not judgment. That is the fine line. Because judgment can get into places that you don't want to go, right, but to just have that—it's almost like a flashlight, you're turning on inside the other person, like, “Help me understand your motivations.”
And I say it's a four-part equation because I truly don't believe you can do one without the other three. If you don't have the strength in your value, then your curiosity is going to get kind of wonky, right?
Dr. Lisa: Sure.
Mory: If you don't have boundaries—it's not great to be vulnerable without being able to uphold boundaries. So it is a very delicate dance, but I think that when you put those four things together, then that equation becomes really effective in managing difficult people or difficult situations.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Wow. And I have to say more in probably, I mean, how much courage does it take to do that, and then imagine, you know, I sit down and someone with, you know, relative less power in the system using your four-part model, which makes perfect sense—in the values and boundaries and vulnerability and also the curiosity. And I could also see how for very powerful people in an organization, why it would be so important to have a Mory, who is also right there that they have hired to kind of like push them around a little bit for you to be saying, “Why are you thinking that that is an effective way to communicate with people?” Because I could see like coming from you, they'd be like, “Oh, okay.”
Dr. Lisa: Whereas, if it was, you know, Joe, the mail clerk down the hall, it would probably be very easy for powerful people to get defensive and confronted.
Mory: Well, and let me tell you this…
Dr. Lisa: Yeah.
Mory: Yeah, which is that it all comes back to their purpose. That's why I call what I do “purpose coaching”, right? Very powerful people still need to feel aligned with something.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah.
Mory: And so this curiosity from me, which does hold them accountable, is less about really judging them but about, “What is it that fulfills you? What is your purpose? And where are you off track? Why are you off track right now? How do we get you back in alignment with—what I call your own internal GPS? Because that's how you're going to be more effective, more successful, more innovative.” And that's what we find with these powerful executives sometimes, where things are going awry, it's a misalignment with their purpose, like they've forgotten their “why.” And so this is really about tuning the GPS back on rather than making it a judgment framework for them, that they have to operate in.
Dr. Lisa: I know, completely. It’s so important. Well, and, you know, kudos to the people in leadership positions who are inviting that kind of growth experience through their work with you. But do you think that it is possible for someone on the lower echelons of an organization like the ones we've been describing, to create change in that system from the bottom up? Or do you think that leadership needs to be actively participating in the creation of that change in order for it to occur?
Mory: You know, I think that it can go both ways. I think ultimate transformation comes from both sides. I think that if truly the organization is toxic, and it's going to change, it has to come from the bottom up and the top down in order to transform. Now, it is a domino effect. So to answer your question, “Can it just be from the bottom up?” Yes. Because that's what puts pressure on the organization to change, and, you know, I really believe that that has to do with unity and collaboration at those levels, right? Where we are all aware at our level that we are in a toxic environment, so, therefore, we are going to treat each other with respect, and we are going to resist the temptation to get the reward for the bad behavior. Because that's how the toxic work cultures happen, right? You have toxicity from the top, and then toxic behavior is rewarded, and those of us that want that pat on the back and the validation are going to do what we can for that carrot.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah.
Mory: And I think that change comes from awareness again, that this is not an environment that can really help people to flourish. And in agreement, at a certain level, organically at that bottom-up level of, “Okay, then we're in this together. Unity is our strength. So not one person is going to then go and get that carrot, we're going to all uphold boundaries. We're going to see each other, and each other, the value, and we're going to interact with one another with respect, even if we're being rewarded for being disrespectful to each other.”
Dr. Lisa: Geez. That’s such a good message, Mory, and I think one that needs to be said out loud. Because I think you see that in toxic organizations where it's more important than ever for the rank and file to be like, you know, working as a team to affect change, you start to see people turning on each other, don't you?
Dr. Lisa: Yeah, that's like survival. Island…
Mory: That survival, that’s what it is.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Ugh.
Mory: Yeah, and it reminds me of that, I don't know, that Aesop's fable, if you've heard of them. The bundle of sticks where there's a father who had sons who were constantly quarreling, quarreling, and he didn't know what to do with them, and he gave them a bundle of sticks and said, “Try to break this.” And they couldn't break it. And then he untied them and gave them one stick at a time, and “Try to break it.” And they broke it. And then he said to them, “Can you see that if you help each other, it’s impossible for your enemies to injure you. But if you're divided, then you're just as strong as that one stick.” So it really is an ancient truth.
Dr. Lisa: That’s an awesome story. I just got chills. Gosh, I'm thinking like organizationally but, goodness, like as a society?
Mory: Yeah, the society.
Dr. Lisa: Like, ugh.
Dr. Lisa: Somebody needs to send that one to the powers that be in Congress right now.
Dr. Lisa: But anyway, let’s go back. That’s probably not my place.
Mory: That's a whole other podcast.
Dr. Lisa: Really? So, okay. So that is an absolutely necessary survival—not just survival tactic—but you know, change agent for a toxic work environment. Like, if it's going to get better, it's going to require that teamwork. And have you been witness to organizational cultures that are so toxic as to be irredeemable, like there's no changing it, you just gotta recognize it for what it is? Like a really toxic relationship, like this is not going to get better, we need to recognize it for what it is, what it always will be, and like just get out of there as fast as you can. Have you seen that? Or do you think that change is always possible? I don't know, you might be less cynical than I.
Mory: I have seen it, unfortunately, more times than I would like—I've been in it myself.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah.
Mory: And I will tell you, it comes from the very top. And if the very top is toxic and has no desire to change, then really, change is very difficult, right? That's when you start to see, okay, maybe it lasts a decade, two decades, three decades, but things start to fall apart at some level because people start to become fed up. So I think you lose your license to operate when the toxicity comes from the top, and that leader is not willing to change. I think if you're in that—listening to this right now—you're like, “Oh my god, there's no hope.” If you see any iota, any kind of clue, that the leader is trying to change, right, you see them with a coach, you see them bringing in third parties, you see them doing surveys. Right? Like any kind of sense that there's a desire to create a change, that’s when the kind of light can glimmer in. But if there's no desire to change, then that is when the toxicity overpower, unfortunately.
Dr. Lisa: There has to be that willingness to change. And then actually, while we're on this subject, and I hope this isn't putting you on the spot, but would you have any insight to share for people who are maybe, you know, seeking a different position and desiring to avoid getting into a toxic situation in the first place?
Mory: I mean, we talked about relationship warning signs, like what would you say are some of the things to pay attention to if you're interviewing or vetting a new organization to work for that might reveal toxic culture before you actually start working there, which would be way better?
Dr. Lisa: Six months in, right?
Mory: I know. Well, there's two parts of the answer. I'll give the easy part, and then I'll go to the hard part. I'll do it the other way around this time. The easy answer is to really make sure you're talking to as many people who work there as possible and asking them things like, “How do you like being here? What do you feel like the mission of this organization is, and how are you a part of that mission? What does your work-life balance look like? How do you feel fulfilled when you walk in this door? How do you work with your colleagues, and what is that relationship like?” Really try to talk to people that are going to be at your level before you go in.
I think that one warning sign is if you see disengagement in an interview, and I think that if you know how to look for it, you'll find it pretty easily—which is that you just don't see that passion and come through when they're trying to sell you on the job because that's what they're supposed to be doing. And if you feel that disconnect, then there's something missing. They don't feel engaged, and they feel disconnected. If you feel it from one person, but the other five are passionate, okay, that person could be in a different situation. But if you talk to several people, and you still feel that, like, “Where's the excitement or the enthusiasm or the passion?” then there's a disengagement. So that's the, I think, that kind of easier things you can tick off. The harder answer is, like in a relationship, you have to know yourself first before you know what you're looking for, right?
Dr. Lisa: Yeah.
Mory: And so, I always…
Dr. Lisa: Because toxic is different for different people. Yeah.
Mory: Right. Well, not only that, but you know, I've been asked a lot lately because people are changing jobs. And anytime I get interviewed about job changes, I say, “You have to start by identifying your purpose and your values. What is your “why”? What fulfills you? What are you good at naturally, right? That's your purpose. And what are your values?” And when you have clarity on that, it is on you. You are accountable to go find an opportunity and an environment that matches your frequency. You can't go out there looking for something with blinders on; you have to know yourself first.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah. That's great advice. Like, what am I looking for? What would feel fulfilling? Is this a match?
Dr. Lisa: But also then talking to people on the inside or like paying attention if they seem kind of checked out, or you're like, “Why would that make sense?” So, okay, good advice. Okay, so now—and I know that we're coming up on our time here—but before I let you go, I would love to talk with you a little bit more about, you know, your work with leaders, specifically, and how leaders—leadership—so people who call the shots, so a founder and an owner, the, you know, C suite people. What are some things that they need to be very consciously aware of doing, in order to create an empowering environment for the other people on the team?
Mory: There's really three big ones that I’ve worked on and focused on a lot. The first starts with managing your own fears. What is it that you're afraid is going to happen if you empower others, or if you let go of the steering wheel slightly? What you find a lot of in highly successful executives or entrepreneurs is perfectionism—and perfectionism at some level is driven by a fear of failure. And so, really getting clear on what you're afraid of, and whether that's a reality or a fear, is a very important exercise if you want to build empowered cultures because it's asking you to manage your own stuff and not asking your employees to do that for you, which is what not self-aware leaders are asking. When you're not self-aware, you're not willing to do that work, you're asking your employees to manage your fears for you, and that's not okay.
The second one, then, once you've been able to do that is to delegate decision-making. That's the second thing I see as problematic is that there's such a desire for control and perfectionism, that others are not given the opportunity to make decisions. This is actually where you see, going back to this idea of diversity in historically oppressed groups, where you're seeing a lack of true innovation is because there's no diverse voices in that group that's making the decisions. Then the problem comes in when the brand is selling to customers that are diverse, but the decision-makers don't reflect that same look. And that's where you start to see, as someone who comes from crisis management, crises happen for organizations because they're speaking to a group of people without having empathy for them.
Dr. Lisa: I see.
Mory: And so, that's where you need to have diverse decision-makers, and that's where the delegating of decision-making authority comes in. And then the last one is really accepting failure as a path towards growth and innovation. And not being so afraid that failure is going to, you know, snowball into something bigger than it is in that moment. That really, people are only going to learn and grow and become empowered leaders if you encourage them to fail. And then also, that you embrace accountability, that if that failure is, in a way, that truly misrepresents the brand or your values, that you can hold people accountable.
Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Those are all great, great strategies to be able to, I think what you're saying is really like identify and confront whatever fear is driving over control in leaders.
Dr. Lisa: And being able to cope with that to the degree to let other voices in, let other people take charge of some things and kind of trust that that is going to be okay, and also, have confidence that if it isn't okay, that can also be part of a healthy process. It’s, you know, making mistakes and learning from it. That's great.
And I guess I just, lastly, you know, I think what I also see sometimes—people have a lot of power. I think one of the biggest blind spots is that they don't realize how much power they have, like they don't realize how maybe intimidated other people are of them, or the fact that other people perceive them as needing to be handled like delicately. So maybe they're not getting all the information because people are afraid to be as open with them as they like to be. Or that maybe they're kind of subconsciously doing things that gives the impression that they don't desire to have other voices heard. Do you have any thoughts for leaders who might be wanting to gain that self-awareness of things they're unintentionally doing that could be fear-driven or could be creating obstacles to that kind of empowered workplace, that they might desire, but are contributing to the opposite without knowing?
Mory: Yeah, I think there's two things. Yeah, absolutely. There's two things you can do. One is getting curious. You know, really being able to ask questions and then be quiet and listen to the answers, which goes to point number two, which is managing your reactivity. When you're hearing something as a leader that you don't like, you really need to take a beat, like take a deep breath, let that happen, let that person walk away, and then just like process it before you say anything about it. That's how you create a safe space where people can trust you enough to talk to you.
And then if you really processed it, and you've separated out your own stuff, your own triggers, your own fears from the reality, you can go back to them and address just the facts of what they've said, right? And if they're misinformed, if they are making assumptions that are not fair—if you know, there's a lot of ways that you're going to get feedback that are just inaccurate because someone doesn't have that piece of the puzzle. And you certainly should engage in dialogue. This is not to say that misinformation shouldn't be corrected, but you have to really do the work to separate that out from your own, you know, anxieties or fears that are getting triggered by what you're hearing. And I think what you see when people don't trust their leadership is just reactivity and not being able to manage that.
Dr. Lisa: You shared so many wonderful insights and tips, but I think one of my biggest takeaways from our entire conversation kind of comes back to the idea that personal growth is absolutely essential for leaders to be engaged in on an ongoing basis. That is like what I keep thinking of, like we think of personal growth opportunities as being personal or like in your relationships.
Dr. Lisa: You have to, really, to be an effective leader, and to have an organization that is a healthy, strong place, it requires a lot of deep diving into your own psyche and emotions and core beliefs and expectations and emotional regulation.
Mory: Gone are the days of not bringing your humanity into your leadership. People aren't going to stand for it anymore, right? They have too much power in being able to share their experiences, thanks to social media, that you don't have the option of not bringing your humanity in anymore. And I think leaders were taught that they had to leave that at the door, and now we have to reteach them how to lead successfully while being personal, you know, human people that are growing and focusing on their own evolution.
Dr. Lisa: Wow, and I love what you said a second ago because the workforce is becoming so much more empowered and, hopefully, even that much more empowered, as a result of listening to all of your great advice today. So thank you for sharing it so generously. I appreciate this. And you guys, if any of you would like to learn more about Mory Fontanez or her work, she can be found at 822—do you say at 8-22 Group Mory, or 8-2-2 Group?
Mory: 8-22. Yeah.
Dr. Lisa: The number 822group.com is the website, and she's also on Instagram at @moryfontanez. Mory, thank you so much.
Mory: Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed talking with you.