Signs Your Relationship Will Last a Lifetime (And How to Know)

Dr. Ben: Really going well. We feel connected. We love each other. But there’s just some hesitation for, okay, how do I move into that next step?

Dr. Lisa: This episode is for you if you are in a relationship that is mostly good, right? A lot of good there. Nothing is dumpster fire wrong. But like all relationships, there’s a little bit of a mixed bag, and you’re at a crossroads moment.

Dr. Ben: Seeing your parents in a loveless marriage, or you’ve seen one of your parents being unfaithful to the other, and it leaves a mark on you that makes it feel hard to sort of trust that this person who you love right now, and who cares a lot about you right now, is going to maybe be there for the long haul.

Dr. Lisa: Is it time to get married, or move in together, or have a baby? And how do you know that this is the one? This is the relationship that’s going to last you the rest of your life. That can be kind of paralyzing. And so on this episode of Love, Happiness and Success, we are tackling that, giving you some ideas, some strategies to help you get clear about whether moving forward is, in fact, the right next step for you.

Dr. Ben: Sometimes folks that have a difficult time committing to a career path or a degree plan or anything like that are going to have that same difficulty committing to a partner.

Dr. Lisa: By the end of today’s episode, you are going to have some clarity and some direction for how to get those answers.

If this is your first time listening, welcome. I’m your host, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. I’m a psychologist, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and a board certified coach, here with you every week unpacking love, happiness, and success in all its iterations. And thank you so much for being here with me today. If you haven’t done so already, please follow the show. Bonus points if you leave a review. And if you connect with me on Instagram, we can continue this conversation.

This show might not be for you right now, but it makes you think about someone in your life who needs this guidance. And let’s bring some light into their world. Thank you in advance for sharing the show with whoever you think needs to listen.

My very special guest today, you guys, you’re in for such a treat, is my friend and colleague, Dr. Benjamin Jones. Ben is the real deal. He has a doctorate in marriage and family therapy, and he is a professor of marriage and family therapy at the University of Southern Mississippi. And he is also a very highly qualified couples counselor and relationship coach. He’s a board certified coach like me, and he’s also a certified Prepare/Enrich premarital counselor, which means that he has specialized experience in helping couples make some choices about the next steps in their relationship and get on the same page, so that when they do move forward, they enter into a lifetime of love, not a new set of problems.

So, Dr. Ben, you’re the guy to talk to about this.

Dr. Ben: Well, really happy to be here. Excited to talk about it today. So yeah, it’s an important topic.

Dr. Lisa: Well, it really is, because, you know, in my experience, and I know yours too, this is one of the things that can bring people into couples counseling, relationship coaching. Nothing is so wrong that we need to end things, but is it right enough to crank up the volume and start buying real estate together? And it can be challenging. What do you make of that?

Dr. Ben: Yeah, I think people undersell just how challenging that can be. On the side of counseling and coaching, sometimes you come in with a highly distressed couple. That’s actually an easier path to work with, right? There’s a clear goal in mind.

Or you come in with people that are saying, I’m getting married in ten days and just want to do a little check in before that. Or we need the certificate. Or this is going to give us a $25 discount on our marriage license, if you will.

So those happen occasionally. But there’s that middle ground of, like, really going well, we feel connected, we love each other, but there’s just some hesitation for, okay, how do I move into that next step? And I think that hesitation comes from a ton of places. And so that’s part of what makes it so interesting and difficult to work with sometimes.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, because, like, step one, what you’re saying is, why is this hesitancy? And I’d love to hear your thoughts about that. I mean, maybe we should just start there. When people are like, eh, when it comes to taking the next step, why?

Dr. Ben: Yeah, I think in my work I’ve seen a whole host of reasons. A few that come to mind: I think a lot of times people have some unacknowledged family of origin baggage that maybe they’re not quite sure how to deal with.

And so you’ve seen your parents in a loveless marriage, or you’ve seen one of your parents being unfaithful to the other, and it leaves a mark on you that makes it feel hard to sort of trust that this person who you love right now, and who cares a lot about you right now, is going to maybe be there for the long haul. So I think that’s one of the things I’ve seen.

Dr. Lisa: So what you’re saying is, it’s like it’s not even about the relationship. It’s like old, maybe even subconscious associations with, like, marriage equals doom. And things are good right now, but if we get married, then…

Dr. Ben: Yeah. Yeah, I see a lot of that. And even just some underlying, what I would call, like, decision paralysis sometimes. Right, of like, sometimes folks that have a difficult time committing to a career path or a degree plan or anything like that are going to have that same difficulty committing to a partner, because it feels scary, or like a big decision.

Dr. Lisa: It is a big decision.

Dr. Ben: It is a big decision, right?

Dr. Lisa: So what about, well, I don’t know, I mean, would you say commitment issues would fall into that category? Like just sort of across the board having trouble making major life decisions? Or do you feel like what we think of as commitment issues is a different thing?

Dr. Ben: I think it’s a little nuanced and a little different. I think commitment issues, when I think about them in terms of relationships specifically, I think, yeah, it has all of that sort of context that I was just talking about. But I think it’s also got this sense of, like, a very real assessment of what’s happening in that relationship. Because sometimes there are, you know, like red, in some ways, like red lights make it very…

Dr. Ben: …easy to know when to stop. Like a red flag is a red flag. It’s sort of the yellow, orange, beige stuff that people struggle with that I think makes it hard to commit. Right? Like, I don’t love that, but it’s probably okay. You know, I think that falls into, I see that a fair amount too.

Dr. Lisa: Okay, well let’s just pause here then, to illuminate this, because, like, you know, that’s such a good point. You and I know that all relationships are multidimensional, and there are good parts, and there are boring parts, and there are annoying parts. Right? And so I wonder too, and I’ve seen, if somebody has a sort of ideal of what it should be, and then their actual relationship with an actual human is a little bit more complicated, it can make them question…

Dr. Lisa: …is this the right thing? Like, is that what you’re saying?

Dr. Ben: That is what I’m saying. You know, I think the thing that came to mind as you were talking is, as much as I love Jerry Maguire, that “you complete me” line has probably misdirected a lot of people.

Dr. Lisa: I’ve never actually seen that movie. So you’re going to have to explain it to me.

Dr. Ben: Oh, it’s fantastic. I’m going to say spoiler alert, but I think the movie’s 20 years old, so, audience, my apologies if you haven’t seen it yet. There’s this scene at the end that builds to this sort of back and forth romance between Renee Zellweger and Tom Cruise’s character. And, you know, at the end he comes in, is trying to make this apology, and she just cuts him off and says, you complete me.

And that’s sort of the famous scene from that film, or one of the famous scenes from that film. I think that idea is particularly harmful, because I think most relationships from that perspective, it’s like, can this person meet all of my needs all of the time? And no, they can’t. Some of your needs, some of the time is really what you ask for in a relationship.

And so I think that sometimes there’s that unrealistic… Similarly, I feel that way when people say things like, when you know, you know. That’s the least helpful piece of advice you could ever give somebody, because if you’re struggling to know something, I mean, it leaves you in a worse place than you were before, right?

Dr. Lisa: Well, and furthermore, because that is, I think, also really true. You know, a lot of the unit of measurement that we use to make decisions about relationships is how we feel. And certainly early stages, there’s chemistry, there’s excitement and all the things. But then especially, you know, like if you’ve been dating someone for five years or cohabitating for seven years, you don’t probably feel that same way. And so if you’re asking yourself, or expecting to feel, I don’t know, like, what would you even say? And, like, that’s how we decide. But then it’s so easy to question that, or almost argue with yourself. I mean, what do you see in your work, or even in your life, if it’s okay to ask?

Dr. Ben: Yeah, yeah. You know, for sure. Thinking about clients and thinking about my own marriage, you know, I think the trajectory of that, wife and I are a month out from celebrating ten years. And there’s that trajectory of just what I would call, like, depth, that starts to matter as much or more than that sort of spark, flame part of things.

And so for couples in that situation, that’s one of the things I always want to mind. Like, has this relationship stalled out? Have you stopped growing together? Are you just Netflixing every night and no real conversation? Or can you look at this person and say, man, I know you so much better than I knew you two or three years ago, and I still really trust this person. I still really want to be with this person. May not get the butterflies when they walk into the room that I got early on, but I get something different. I get this depth of, sort of, the honor of being the person that gets to know that person well.

And so I think if that part is there, and the only thing holding someone back is that feeling part, I think that’s one of the ideas I try to massage. Is, you know, feelings are important, but there’s a lot of other metrics that are pointing to true north in that situation.

Dr. Lisa: So that’s such a great point. And what you’re talking about, I think, and this is so helpful, I mean, even just as, like, a decision-making thing, right? What you’re talking about is perhaps a process where you’re getting clear about your values and thinking, like, what is really important. And if the things that are fundamentally important to you are actually present, like, someone you admire and respect, and they’re interesting or fun, and there’s that growth, right? You feel like there’s development instead of stagnation, or whatever else is important to you. I mean, you and I are talking about our things, but for somebody listening, it could be completely different. That is more enduring. Is that the right word to use?

Dr. Ben: I think so. What came to mind for me as you were talking is, in that sort of area of, like, what I call, like, core values or relationship alignment, some things have a lot more weight than others, right? So if you have a couple that’s, you know, it’s one person’s Jewish and one person’s Catholic, you can probably figure out how to go to synagogue and how to go to mass, and have conversations about what it means for your family.

If you have someone that says, I don’t want kids, full stop, and someone else that says, I’ve always wanted kids, when those people start considering sort of compromising on that so they can be together long term, because they want to be with this person, that is a really, that’s a tough road to walk.

And so I think some of those things, particularly the things that then define, like, what is life going to look like for us, right? It’s not a small thing. We’re talking, you know, the decision to have kids or not is, for a lot of people, setting a 40, 45, 50 year trajectory in your life, right?

Dr. Lisa: That’s a great point. Well, no, because what you’re saying, and just to say this out loud in words, is that in order for this to, air quote, work, one of you has to fundamentally change yourself in some big way, or let go of something that is deeply important to you, for this relationship. That is, I mean, maybe the biggest red flag.

Dr. Ben: I think so. And I think it scares me more when it’s couples that sort of move quickly towards marriage, because if you’re still in that initial, like, firework phase, in some ways that’s a really poor time to make a decision about compromising a major value.

Dr. Lisa: You’re in an altered state of consciousness.

Dr. Ben: Yeah, exactly. It’s not, you know, this is not what life is going to feel like five years from now when you want kids. And so those are some big, big factors to consider, I think.

Dr. Lisa: So then just to ask, you know, for someone listening to this who’s in that situation and is like, okay, is this my person? Am I ready to go all in? If they wanted to begin uncovering some of this and making that explicit, like, that can be hard to do. Do you have any activities or recommended actions, or even books? I mean, and of course there’s doing this work with somebody like yourself, right? There’s the easy button. But, like, for somebody to have a next step, even just after listening to this podcast, how might they begin?

Dr. Ben: Yeah, I think, and this would require meeting with someone, but, like, I use the Prepare/Enrich assessment a lot, which that assessment can be offered by a lot of different people. Like, therapists can offer it, coaches can offer it, church small group leaders can offer it. Kind of a wide net. And you don’t have to necessarily commit to long term work.

But what it gives you is this really kind of incredible report on your relationship across nine, ten core value areas, personality differences, stress profiles, how flexible the relationship feels, how close the relationship feels. And that can be just this invaluable way to sort of put some metrics out. Because sometimes people, I think, just want that last little, like, am I sure? Is this really okay? Am I, are other people seeing this too, or is it just me? And that assessment can say, no, there is some real depth here.

I think in terms of reflective activities, my favorite question to ask people is, you know…

Dr. Ben: …do you want to want to move forward with this person? Right? Because even if you can’t get to a place of saying, I want to do this, the answer to that question tells me a lot. Because if you want to want it, then, to me, whatever we’re trying to move out of the way at that point is something that you’re probably ready to move.

Dr. Lisa: Okay. So, I want to want it. Let’s unpack this a little further, Dr. Ben. Like, what would be an example of this? I want to want it, but… So you’re saying that you’re identifying the “but”?

Dr. Ben: I think so, a little bit. But also just, you know, someone sitting across from you with some ambivalence about the relationship, and saying, you know, I love this person. We’ve been together for five years. I just don’t know why I’m having a hard time committing.

Then the answer to that. Okay, you’re not saying you want to get married right now. Are you saying you want to get to a place where you want to get married to this person? And so, you know, that tells me, okay, then let’s figure out what exactly that last hesitation is.

And I think for a lot of people, it’s this, what I would call, a misconception of, like, I’m looking for certainty, when the metric ought to be confidence, I think. Right? Like, is this a person that I can trust?

I had a professor in undergrad who would tell us a story of taking students over to his home, and he had a picture of his wife in her wedding dress, like, above the mantel, like, when you first walked in. And he had been married to her exclusively, right?

Dr. Ben: One marriage. But he would always walk in and point to it and say to the students, that’s my first wife. And then to talk about, you know, how things had changed, and he had come to love every version of her.

Dr. Lisa: I just got chills, Ben. That’s cool. Because that was the first wife. Like, that 22 year old girl, or whatever. She is gone.

Dr. Ben: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Like, can you figure this out with this person when you are in some ways different people, right? Like, can you continue to stay in love, fall in love, care for each other? And that, to me, speaks more in the confidence category than the certainty category.

Because, you know, the other heartbreaking thing is, I’ve worked, you work with couples in this line of work where they have a really dynamic relationship story. They have a really incredible beginning. And then out of nowhere, to one person, it feels like there’s an affair, right? And that wasn’t in the script for you, right? And so I think, like, no one at that point is predicting those things are going to happen, and no one wants those things to happen. I think feeling like, okay, who can I navigate hard things with? That to me is really important.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and then so what you’re saying is that the other side of that question, do you want to want to, could help illuminate the obstacle, certainly. But that could also be like, well, why? Why do you want to want to? And then you’re saying that that can illuminate some of these, like, character qualities. That you’re saying that these are the things that are going to endure, even when someone is 20 years older and that much saggier, and not, you know, going with you to music festivals and riding around on the motorcycle anymore, because we’re home with kids. Like, so what is left over? And having visibility into that.

Dr. Ben: Yeah, for sure. I think it’s, in some ways, right, it’s not like who is dynamic with me right now. It’s, you know, who’s going to help me when I’m sick in 35 years? You know, who’s going to be… They’re not probably bringing me flowers every Friday at dinner.

Dr. Lisa: Good for you.

Dr. Ben: But who has a relationship that sends you a letter, sends you a letter every day? Well, maybe that’s your story. Maybe you’re Ryan Gosling-ing it. But for the most part, I think, yeah, trying to envision, like, is this a person who, when I look into my future, even if things are hard, I know them well enough that they’re going to take care of me and they’re not going to walk away. Right? That, to me, is one of the helpful things to envision.

I think answering that question, though, right, like that, do you want to want to. That’s where those things come up, like I was mentioning earlier, right? Like, sometimes it’s, oh, yeah, but my family is coming to mind, and I’m thinking about what I saw growing up. Or I had a friend that went through something terrible, or my best friend had some hesitations about this person.

Which, as a tangent, that’s another thing I love to ask clients, right? Like, the people in your life that care about you the most, right? So your family, your friends, how do they feel about this relationship? Because if you tell me they all feel like, eh, then that’s something. The people that care about you the most want the best for you. So that’s worth listening to, right?

Dr. Lisa: Well, this has been fantastic so far, and we’ve done so much, I think, good conversation that I hope provides direction to our friends here listening, around how to start to get under the hood. Think about values. Think about what’s really important. And, like, how do you make these decisions if there’s ambivalence, by understanding what might tip you into the side of the good.

I would love to hear your thoughts about another thing that you and I have both seen. A relationship that has a lot of strengths and a lot of opportunity, but there are actually some issues. Why people might justifiably have some ambivalence about doubling down on a relationship if there are issues that might need to be solved.

Dr. Ben: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, you Google something like…

Dr. Ben: …core domains in a relationship, and you get slightly different lists from slightly different blogs and resources. But in general, you kind of see this common overlap of, we’re talking about family, we’re talking about finances, faith, sexual expectations, conflict resolution, parenting, all those things.

And so I think, kind of like talking earlier about navigating the parenting piece, I think some of those are bigger than others. And so I think for a lot of people, it’s getting clarity around, okay, like, what in this matters to you the most, right? And what are you maybe able to compromise?

Because someone who grew up in a really wealthy family, right, might have some ambivalence about marrying a public school teacher, right? Because that’s just so far outside of the realm of what felt comfortable. Like, oh, I saw my dad making tons of money in business. Can we be comfortable? Right. And that might be an area where, yeah, life can flex, and life doesn’t have to look like four vacations a year to exotic locations. It can look like a quieter…

Dr. Lisa: Suburban love.

Dr. Ben: Suburban love, right?

Dr. Lisa: It should be a thing.

Dr. Ben: But those areas, like, one of the ones I’ve seen, I think, be the most problematic for couples outside of parenting has been the sexual expectations category. And I know this is hyper specific, but the couples I’ve seen it be, like, the hardest for are couples where there’s been conversations around monogamy, and whether or not one person, you know, would prefer a relationship that includes some consensual non-monogamy. The other person, sometimes to keep that person, will say, I don’t, but I’ll get there. I’ll want that.

And I have yet to see that go well for a couple, because it just creates feelings of betrayal and not enough. And so I think, again, what that thing is, right? If it’s family, if it’s faith, if it’s finances, parenting, I think that changes for every couple, right? And for every person in a relationship, right? It might not be, one person might not care about the finance question, but they have a lot of feelings about wanting their family to grow up in church together, or something like that.

And so, yeah, to me, an initial step for people like that is to sort of have them write out and identify what are those things. And essentially, like, when I look forward into my life ten years from now, fifteen years from now, what do I want it to look like? That tells me a little bit about what I value. Now I’ve built that image of my life. Is this person I’m with someone that I can see in that picture? Or are they miserable in that picture? Are they chasing around three kids they didn’t want to have, and sexually frustrated and financially stressed? That tells you a lot, I think, about the relationship.

Dr. Lisa: Or am I miserable in that picture? And, yeah. So, and this is, I’m so glad we’re talking about this, because, you know, like, the “I must have children in order for my life mission to be complete” versus somebody who is like, no, I do not want to do that. That is, like, so clear in a lot of ways that it’s almost easier.

Although I have still personally had couples in premarital counseling where I broached that, and she’s like, no, I’m going to medical school and I have this whole career. And I literally had the male partner sitting on my couch who said, she’ll change her mind. And I was like, yeah, no.

Anyway, so, you know, that exists. But what you’re bringing up right now, I think, is something that can be almost harder to get into, which is the level of self-awareness that will tell you, is this something that is a non-negotiable for me? Like the non-monogamy thing, or to share a spiritual worldview, or to have certain life goals maybe around, you know, I mean, there could be so many things.

And I think what is challenging, and even just, you know, from my own work with clients, but for my own life, like, there are some things that change, right? And that can be growth opportunities. People can evolve. But there are some things that really can’t. And that requires such a deep level of self-knowledge, because I think that especially when you’re excited about getting married and you really like a person, and there’s a lot of, you know, stuff, I could see flexing in a way that is maybe in opposition to that core truth. Like the example that you brought up, somebody being like, okay, open marriage, sure, but that doesn’t really fit for them. Or vice versa. And that’s hard, Ben. How do you know?

Dr. Ben: Yeah, that’s a really hard place to be in. And, you know, sometimes one of the things I’ll talk to couples about in that is, is this worth compromising on? And is there some things that fall into, like, I would call, like, very binary categories. Kids, no kids. There are other things that are on a spectrum, right? Of, like, how much money does it take to be comfortable? Is our conflict resolution strong enough? You know, can we work to improve that?

You know, those, the growth areas, I think, are really where, like, relationship coaching and counseling can thrive, right? Like, let’s build the skill set that’s going to carry you through that. But you can’t build a skill set to change your underlying disposition towards those other things, right?

Yeah. That’s where, and I think one of the things I see, the, you mentioned it with, you know, the guy on your couch saying, she’ll change her mind…

Dr. Ben: I mean, if there’s any piece of, like, I hesitate to use the word advice, but anything I throw out, it’s, you can’t marry someone assuming change, especially not the kind of change you want to see.

That person’s going to change, but maybe not in the way that you’re hoping. And then what do you do seven or eight years from now, when that has become abundantly clear and you’ve started building this life together? It’s really kind of heartbreaking when that happens, because people enter these situations for all the right reasons, right? It’s like, I love this person. This is who I want to be with. I care about them so much.

But again, aren’t at a point in that relationship where that has started to shift to, like, a deeper exploration of, like, what does life really look like further out? Yeah. So that, to me, is particularly, particularly sad.

Dr. Lisa: That really is.

Dr. Ben: It’s also one of the reasons why, if I have any soapbox in this field, it would be, let’s stop doing premarital counseling and let’s start doing pre-engagement counseling.

Dr. Lisa: That is a good idea. Dr. Ben, for real.

Dr. Ben: Because the couples, yeah, my experience, and this has been really sad too, the number of couples I’ve had that have come to me, done Prepare/Enrich, wanted four sessions, because four sessions was what their church required, or what got them the discount on their marriage license. And they’ll tell me in that intake, you know, we’re April 15th, right?

Dr. Lisa: I’m like, three weeks from now.

Dr. Ben: Yeah. Like, oh, we’re getting married in the middle of May. Like, oh, well, you’re not going to make any different choices, probably, based on what this assessment says. And then when you open that assessment, and it’s got, like, things that feel kind of bottomed out, it’s really heartbreaking to figure out, okay, that’s not great news. And it’s not a pass/fail test in the relationship.

But at that point, the machine is so in motion that there’s no shutting it down. Right? You’ve got deposits on venues. You’ve got family coming into town, right? So trying to get as far ahead of that as possible, to me, feels like a critical step, right?

Dr. Lisa: Oh, that is such good advice. Because you’re totally right. There’s this outing that it turns into almost a performance art situation. You know, like, there have been social posts and pictures of the ring, and everybody’s excited, and your mom is crying. And then when you start doing this exploratory work and to walk into, like, ooh, yeah, maybe. I mean, can you really say that this is, maybe we should slow down?

And some people do, you know. That takes so much courage, though, because the wheels of the machine start. And I have absolutely sat with so many people as a therapist, and they are either divorced or divorcing, and that is a story that they told me. That they were 25 and they were excited about the dress and the party, and this is, you know, the thing. And they had concerns that they were like, nope, I’m not going to entertain this, because of all this other stuff. Until, you know, seven or eight, ten years later. Yeah, there it is.

Dr. Ben: Yeah. And at that point, I think, I feel like I keep talking about movies, but there’s We Bought a Zoo. And there’s a scene in that movie where Matt Damon is talking…

Dr. Lisa: I haven’t seen that movie either.

Dr. Ben: Okay. His family buys a zoo, and it’s like this big adventure thing. And there’s a line in that movie where he’s talking and says, you know, something to the effect of, all it takes is 20 seconds of insane courage to change your life. Like, it doesn’t take a huge thing.

And I think about that when I think about the couples that get that kind of news, because I have had couples that, you know, have made that hard choice of, like, okay, this is going to cost us money. This is going to engender some shame, for people wondering what happened. We’re going to have to deal with that. But we can’t do this.

And, you know, sometimes that decision gets made two weeks before, and sometimes it gets made, yeah, I’ve at least seen one couple where it got made closer to, like, two hours before, right? And so those are particularly difficult, and those feel very permanent, I think, right? Very hard to think about re-inviting people to your second attempted wedding, right?

And so that also feels like, if we’re saying not now, we’re probably saying not ever. That’s how it feels to a lot of people. And so, but the point of the quote, the reason that came to mind, is like, sometimes that level of courage to say, okay, I am going to bet on myself and my future self by doing what feels awful right now, and it’s going to break my heart and break their heart, but I’m hoping in hindsight it’s going to feel like the right thing.

Dr. Lisa: Well, yeah. And so maybe we could just, like, touch on this for a second, because I know that you have seen, and I have, so many examples of people who just kept on going, and now they have a horrible relationship where nobody is having a good time. Tons of conflict, living separate lives, and there are children involved. And now what are you going to do?

And it’s so hard to see that, right? I mean, you and I, we have so much perspective, having witnessed the downstream consequences of, like, oh, it’ll be fine. But when you really think about it, you know, here’s a reframe. We love and respect each other enough to appreciate you for who and what you are, and not seek to try to change you, and set you free, so that you can go have a happy life with someone who loves you exactly as you are, and grow into more of who you are. As opposed to doing this with me, where this is not going to end well. And do it before you get engaged.

Dr. Ben: Yeah. That would be ideal. Yeah. To make that call then. Because I think, you know, some people that, for whatever reason, really want to hold on to a relationship, you know, there’s some attachment insecurity or something like that that makes them sort of cling to someone in a unique way, enough that they will alter parts of their personality or part of their preference. You know, if that’s the case, you’re almost committing to a lifetime of play acting, right?

Dr. Lisa: In your own life. Actual LARPing, yeah, lightsabers and all.

Dr. Ben: So you are, yeah. Like, when you start to change, or when that inevitably breaks down, then your partner sort of entered that relationship also on false terms.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. It’s really, it’s so tricky. Okay, I have to say one more ultra depressing thing, and then we’re going to pivot, and we’re going to go back into the light, because we’re going to talk about what are solvable problems. Because I think that we’ve been talking, and this is good, because people need to know what are the not solvable problems. It’s like, what’s a stop sign before you get engaged?

But I also just want to add one more thing that I have seen on numerous occasions. If you are talking yourself into making major life decisions because there’s rules and shoulds, and, well, this is my only chance, just stop, right? You have more options, and do not box yourself into something that’s probably not a good idea because of, you know, this faulty logic.

Dr. Ben: I couldn’t agree more.

[A portion of this segment, in which Dr. Ben shares personal details about his family, has been omitted from the published transcript at his discretion. The surrounding conversation is unchanged.]

Dr. Lisa: So, Dr. Ben, in this final segment, I really wanted to speak with you about some of the things that can give people pause, right, that are also examples of solvable problems. Like, if we do six, eight, ten, twelve sessions of relationship coaching, pre-engagement counseling, whatever you want to call it, but, like, actively work to have this be different, this could actually be the relationship that we both want to be in, because a lot of the other big pieces are there. We just, there’s some other stuff that needs to get dialed in. What are some examples of that?

Dr. Ben: Yeah, I think about sort of the difference between, like, a preference based set of things and a sort of skill based set of things. And so the skill based set of things, I feel like those are really workable in a relationship.

So you’ve got a couple that feels largely aligned, things going pretty well. They’re trying to make the choice about whether or not they’re going to make that next step, the commitment. But they feel like, man, our arguments, sometimes infrequent, but when we have them, they don’t go anywhere. They escalate fast. We don’t talk to each other for two days. And they think, man, that doesn’t feel, quote unquote, normal. What do I do about that?

Those sort of things, I think, as a coach and therapist, scare me a lot less than the other things, right? Because there are a lot of ways that we can learn in sessions and in practice to communicate more clearly, to take breaks, to not stonewall each other. Right, and to move forward in conflict resolution. Right? Can we repair, and can we move on? Because the question is not, can we not fight, right? Because that’s, I worry about those couples too, when they say, we never fight. Okay, well then, probably something you don’t care about enough, right? Because there should be a little bit of conflict here. But can we repair after it? Because the repair brings you closer. And this is a weird metaphor, but the conflict then becomes like the piece of trash you put…

Dr. Lisa: In the fire. It’s authentic.

Dr. Ben: Fire maker, right. More connection, and it is authentic.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Dr. Ben: Yeah, so I think those sort of things to me feel very solvable. I think I’ve seen couples make real progress too around, like, some family, extended family kind of questions, right? So, because in that coaching or therapy, you can do some work of, like, a little bit of differentiation, to help someone figure out, like, am I enmeshed with my family? Am I depending too much on them? And those things that might drive a partner who has a different experience kind of crazy, or concern them, right?

As you talk about those things, you really can start to see boundaries change and shift. And okay, I’m not going to talk to mom about this. I’m going to hold that in our relationship. I can commit to that. You know, those sort of things feel solvable to me as well.

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely. These are such great points. And just, you know, for anybody who might be surprised about what me and Dr. Ben are talking about right now, things like conflict and communication and feeling frustrated, like, those are frequently solvable problems that are skills based. Frequently, like, how do I handle this situation in a constructive way? And let’s practice.

I’ll also add to what you’re saying, I mean, a lot of the work that we do might be taking a look at where each person comes from culturally, in terms of their life experience. And I think that there can be a lot of expectations around how things should be, like the right way to do things, that are very much a product of your family of origin, that are actually not true for everybody else.

And just even to have some of that, because frequently people are reacting to things that their partner is doing that is different. And so almost that, how do we create our own culture, our own normal, right? And also being able to not try to change each other, but actually understand each other. Right? Because that actually takes away a lot of the conflict that can happen if people were taking that personally, or feeling frustrated that it should be different. And that kind of work, man, it makes so much conflict go away. It really does.

Dr. Ben: It does. Yeah. I think one thing that jumped out as you were saying that, you know, I think also shifting the metric from, like, in communication, there’s a difference between being heard and being agreed with. Right? And it’s okay to be heard. You know, I think about, I think it’s Gottman, what, 69% of problems are unsolvable, or something like that. Right? And so that’s a pretty big number. It’s a pretty big percentage. And figuring out how to dialogue about that, to me, feels like what actually helps relationships thrive.

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely. And write that down. That, you know, people like, well, we struggle with communication, meaning that they do not agree with me, they do not comply. Like, that is not necessarily good communication. To your point, it is, how do we understand?

Dr. Ben: Yeah. And honestly, there’s so much spectrum there, that one of the first questions I ask couples in the intake is, tell me why you’re here without using the word communication. Like, I want to actually know what that means to you. You know, I want to know, right, I get mad when they do this. Not, you know. And so that’s more telling, I think.

Dr. Lisa: Amazing. Okay, so those things are solvable problems. Also, I’ll say, you know, and I know we work with a number of colleagues here at Growing Self for whom this is very much a specialty, to a large degree, sexual differences or different hopes for intimacy, like, those can be developed. And to your point, like, if somebody wants a very different structure around that, you know, or orientation. But this is something that many couples do need to develop additionally, skills around emotional intimacy, emotional safety. Like, these are things we learn how to do as adults. Those batteries do not come included, typically.

Dr. Ben: Yeah, I mean, even speaking to the value of communication. So I have a couple that I have worked with who their breakdown was, they had a really healthy relationship, everything was going well, except one of them wanted to have sex a lot more than the other. So it left one feeling rejected and one feeling objectified.

And one of the moments that stands out to me from that work is a session where we really slowed down and explored it, and the one partner was able to say, I have some stuff going on for me. I want to be more intimate with you, I just don’t know how to get there. And just her partner hearing her say, I want this, I mean, changed the temperature of the whole room, right? And so it didn’t solve a problem in the bedroom in that moment, right, but it did create some hope. And yeah, so absolutely, those things are solvable.

Dr. Lisa: So good. Examples of other solvable problems, and I will just share from my own life experience as well. Typically when people first move in together or first get married, how do I even describe this? It’s like there are all kinds of agreements in how we handle things and who does what, that do not exist yet in the early stages of a relationship. And that can cause a lot of problems in terms of resentment, or blah, blah, blah.

But it’s almost like every couple needs to just develop a, I don’t want to use the word plan, because it doesn’t have to be that formal, but, like, do we make the bed or not make the bed, right? Like, when the toilet gets cleaned, who does actually do that? Maybe nobody. It’s fine. No judgment. But, like, you know, we have to figure all that out. And that requires bumping up against, what? Oh, wait, I thought you were going to do that. You know, and that can create so much friction in a relationship. But it is a very normal developmental stage for every relationship.

So if you’re experiencing that, okay, and a solvable problem. Unless it’s the conflict around, oh, we want really fundamentally different things ten years from now, and that’s why we’re butting heads. Yeah. Would you agree, or see it differently?

Dr. Ben: No, absolutely agree. I’m thinking of my own life. And so I remember vividly, you know, Morgan and I got married in kind of late, my late 20s. And I remember the first time she went out of town on a girls’ trip, and I texted her, like, two days in, and I was like, do you clean up after me? Because I was like, this place is a wreck, and I don’t know what I’m doing differently.

Dr. Lisa: Oh my gosh.

Dr. Ben: She was like, yeah, kinda. We do. And so I think, yeah, especially, I mean, you model that after what you saw in your family, right? And I think sometimes there’s some unfortunate, like, gendered expectations around that.

Dr. Lisa: No, no, no, Ben, hold on, hold on. When I go out of town, I come back and my husband, this place is so much more organized and less chaotic than it usually is. We’re just, you know, because the gender stereotype is that men fall apart if a woman isn’t there to run the show. And that is not always the case, at least, exhibit A right here.

Dr. Ben: For sure. Yeah, I think the harmful version of that is, I mean, it’s all complicated, but the narrative of, like, oh, this is what my mom did, so that’s what my wife needs to do, right? That’s not helpful.

Dr. Lisa: Or appealing.

Dr. Ben: Exactly. So, but all that to say, yeah, those things are things you don’t think to talk about on the second, third, fourth date. But you’ve got to figure out a plan for.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, definitely. So then, you know, on the home stretch here, we talked about so much stuff, Dr. Ben, and this is so valuable. But, like, given that last part, you know, if somebody’s listening to this and being like, oh, okay, the stuff we’re dealing with probably are solvable problems, that they might like to have managed. You know, like, some people, I do actually need to have evidence that this is going to get better before we move forward, which is valid, right?

But, like, what would be the next step? I mean, would you advise that would be a reason for somebody to come into relationship coaching, or, you know, like the type of, whatever we’re calling it, like getting into alignment, working on themselves, right?

Dr. Ben: Yeah, that’s absolutely what I would recommend as the first step. Because, yeah, you can get a self-help book and you can do chapter discussions across date nights, but if you’re not sitting with someone who is sort of this, like, neutral third party who can help guide the process, you’re not getting always honest feedback on that.

And so I think, even, and sometimes people think, oh, I’m going to do this forever. And sometimes all it takes is six or eight sessions to get a lot of clarity, right? It’s not, that doesn’t have to be this huge commitment. So I think that’s the other important thing to keep in mind.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, that’s what happened with my husband and I. When we first got married, we were not having a good time, because, and it was a lot of that, like, the things that we were talking about, and that solvable problem category that hadn’t yet been solved. And I think that we did literally eight sessions of counseling with somebody, and it totally changed the trajectory.

And so it does not have to be a big deal, but it does have to be meaningful. And so I think, what you said earlier, it’s such a lost opportunity, honestly, when somebody’s coming in wanting the certificate so they can get $25 off the marriage license, and you’re like, dude, take this opportunity to do some real work. You know, what is a strength? What is a growth opportunity? And let me help you so that this winds up being good.

Because these solvable problems also don’t solve themselves, typically. In my experience, they tend to get worse.

Dr. Ben: They don’t. That’s the other misnomer, of people sometimes saying, oh, time will fix this. You know, time might take the edge off, but it’s not going to fix the problem. Not by itself.

Dr. Lisa: So that is certainly very important. And then Dr. Ben and I would advise you to look for a licensed marriage and family therapist. Vastly different from a garden variety therapist. Most psychologists, licensed professional counselors, licensed clinical social workers, fantastic people, and may be highly effective, but they are trained in individual therapy.

What Dr. Ben and I right now are talking about is relational dynamics, systems theory. And there’s a, I mean, Ben, you have a whole doctorate just in marriage and family therapy. Like, this is a different thing, and many people don’t realize that.

And then on top of that, what we’re talking about really is utilizing a coaching model, which is figuring out who you are, what do you want, and then what do we need to do to make it happen? And is this developmental, or are we bumping into things at a values level? And that’s a different thing. But that’s also a very different perspective and way of doing this work.

And so, Ben, I know how humble you are. You’re not going to say this out loud yourself, so I’m going to say it for you. You know, this is what you do. And so if anybody listening to this conversation is like, we need this, you can schedule a free consultation directly with Dr. Ben. Come to growingself.com, look for Ben or Dr. Ben, or go to our search bar and put in Benjamin Jones, and schedule a consultation with Ben. And he is the best.

Dr. Ben: Yeah, I would love to be helpful to folks that can use it.

Dr. Lisa: And now, this is for solvable problems. But also if you want some meaningful support getting under the hood and figuring out what is a deal breaker versus what is something that we can work on, oh my gosh, that is an investment in the trajectory of your life. And Dr. Ben can help you with that too.

Dr. Ben: Yeah, we’d love to.

Dr. Lisa: Ben, any final thoughts for our friends here with us, or did we do it?

Dr. Ben: I think we did it. We had a great conversation, so hopefully all the listeners know exactly what to do next. Even if it’s just reaching out.

Dr. Lisa: Excellent. Oh, I loved it. Thank you so much for doing this. And I knew it would be a great conversation, which is why I invited you on. And this was wonderful. But you do have to promise that we’re going to do this again, and we’re going to talk about the many ways to build a family.

Dr. Ben: Absolutely. We’ll do it.

Dr. Lisa: All right, everybody, thanks again so much for tuning in. Again, this is Love, Happiness and Success. Share this with somebody who needs to hear it. Follow the show, connect with me on Instagram, and get in touch with me, with Ben, at growingself.com. And we’ll be back again next week. Take care.