Can a Therapist Be a Life Coach? Why Your License Still Follows You

They come in asking for therapy, but what they really want is to hire you to help them figure themselves out, get clear about what they want, and then how to get where they want to go, or sometimes to simply get other outcomes like performance improvement. If you're a therapist thinking about getting into coaching, but secretly wondering if you're going to cross a line, maybe a line that you don't even know exists until you step over it. Well, I'm glad that you are taking this seriously and thinking about this because the fact of the matter is that while coaching is totally unregulated, all kinds of things happen in the name of coaching.

Therapists who coach are regulated and yeah, there's a double standard, but therapists need to consider coaching and how we show up in this space very differently. So, I'm glad you found me today. This is Love, Happiness, and Success for Therapists. I'm your host, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby and today we're doing a deep dive into blurred boundaries between coaching versus therapy and what dual practitioners, meaning therapists who coach, need to know in order to avoid crossing ethical and even legal lines. So, if this is your first time tuning in, I'm so glad you're here. I started doing this podcast a few years ago because my background, like you, I'm a therapist. I'm a licensed psychologist.

I'm a marriage and family therapist, but I'm also a clinical supervisor and I have lots of opportunities to mentor and teach and develop other clinicians. It is such a passion for me. It's something that I really love and I thought, you know what the heck?

I'm going to turn this into a podcast to be able to share hopefully helpful ideas and tidbits, you know, things that I've learned, but also have a chance to bring other people onto this show, uh, thought leaders, people who are advancing our professions and have some interesting observations or perspectives that can help you not just master your craft and do a better job as a therapist, but also hopefully help you, you know, have some direction and guidance around how to turn this into a sustainable able, positive, pleasurable, even career path because, you know, it's it's not an easy road to walk by yourself for sure. So, that's what I'm doing here every single week and I'm glad you're here with me today.

All right, so let's just jump into this and let's keep in touch before you do anything while you're listening to this, track me down on LinkedIn, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. And you can also come to my website growingself.com/therapists to get access to all kinds of podcast episodes. I've recorded all sorts of free resources, continuing education events that I put out there in the world, all for you. GrowingSelf.com/therapists. All right, so let's just dive into this. First of all, I talk to a lot of therapists who are interested in getting involved in coaching, coaching psychology for a lot of great reasons. There can be so many advantages for therapists who incorporate coaching into their practice and also honestly advantages for our clients.

And I'm happy to tell you about some of what those things are. Let me actually just do that first because we're going to be talking about the risks for therapists who might want to add coaching services, but I don't want you to hear those first and be like, "Never mind. I don't want anything to do with it. It's too much." Because the advantages are are just as real. And I think that it boils down to a few different things.

You know, I probably like you did not learn anything at all about coaching psychology over two different graduate programs. earned a master's degree in counseling psychology and counselor education specializing in marriage and family therapy and then I did a degree in counseling psychology at the doctoral level to become a psychologist and nobody ever uttered the word coaching through all of that training and education because I think that even in counseling programs which are not the hardest of the core clinical mental health right of you know counseling in a lot of ways it's designed it's intended to serve erve the same outcome, right? Helping people develop and grow and figure out who they are and their next steps forward.

Like that is the spirit of counseling psychology. But with counseling psychology, there is still this assumption that we are being trained as healthc care providers. At the end of the day, we are here to diagnose and treat clinical mental health conditions. And counseling is part of that health care pantheon, right? Somebody comes in for counseling, what's the next thing that comes out of their mouth? But can I use my insurance? right? Because that is the expectation.

And so I think probably you know 20 30 years ago maybe longer there was more daylight between counseling psychology and clinical psychology but since then it is indistinguishable and certainly in the eyes of the general public like people coming in looking for therapy right they're not they're not thinking oh but counseling is what I really nobody's doing that it's therapy. So that is significant because what happens here is that all therapists operating in this space are now having people come in looking for therapy and the expectation here is that this is medically necessary treatment. So people are wanting to use their insurance and sometimes of course it is warranted. Clinical mental health treatment is so important. It saves lives literally.

And I think that many therapists, I mean, including myself, to be able to walk with somebody on the path of healing and recovery, you know, maybe they've been through trauma or they're dealing with a really serious mood disorder. Like it's it's very very rewarding work.

And so nobody is mad at clinical work. But but the other thing that is true is that and this is where the opportunity comes in. So many clients that we see especially in a private practice setting, they come in asking for therapy. But what they really want is to hire you to help them figure themselves out, get clear about what they want and then how to get where they want to go. Or sometimes to simply get other outcomes like performance improvement. How do I handle my reactions in these situations more effectively? How can I communicate with my partner? How can my partner and I get on the same page about money? Uh what am I going to do with this next chapter of my life? You I'm going through a divorce. Who who am I now?

You know, maybe it's time for me to figure out my career and have a second chapter. So, that is why clients are oftentimes coming in is that they're looking for partners and guides for that type of work. And what these clients do not know and I think sometimes what therapists don't fully understand until they've been exposed to coaching psychology is that psychotherapy and and even counseling is not necessarily the right tool for that job. We can take what we know from clinical mental health and counseling interventions and try to apply it off label basically for somebody coming in thinking that they're hiring us to help them create these other outcomes. But it doesn't always work that well to be completely honest with you. And I think there's a reason for this.

You know when we are delivering treatment right we're providing treatment. What do we do? We have a treatment plan. We are following an organized system. we have a clear outcome goal like a symptom reduction and we're following a process, right, that guides our work. It allows us to be more organized and it helps us know are we on the right track or not because we're working towards something. But in the absence of a diagnosible condition that therapists can then sometimes and and I've certainly done this, you know, we go into this talk therapy kind of space. There's this vagueness.

It is having sometimes very long-term relationships with clients who week after week and month after month and sometimes year after year come in and we turn into sounding boards and um processing, you know, like feelings and thoughts and ideas. were so good at being a soft place for people to fall, being excellent listeners, um helping people clarify their feelings, process things, you know, create those connections, create insights, and all of that is so valuable. And I think that it also feels very gratifying for our clients. Like, I love talking to you. It's like, you know, feel like I have a a fresh perspective on myself every time I come here. And like, that's great. All all good. Nobody's mad at counseling skills either.

However, when we're doing this and we don't have an effective framework that gives us really a lot of what clinical mental health treatment does, a a process, a how do I help someone get where they want to go if it is not treatment focused? How do I help somebody get clarity that helps them make big decisions that might incorporate other information or perspectives aside, you know, their their own thoughts and feelings, right? Um, where is my agency to teach people how to do new things and develop the ability to move from where they are now to where they want to be and and fill that gap and be a more active partner in that process. Those are things that we are missing without coaching competencies.

And I think many therapists don't really understand the degree to which we are missing this like different way of working and helping people that is intended for non-clinical outcome creation. I know that I certainly did not until I was exposed to coaching psychology and then I was like, "Oh my gosh, where have you been all my life? This is amazing." And I was a little bit annoyed actually just personal share. I was I was sort of frustrated because what I learned ultimately is that this is like a whole field. There are peer-reviewed journals in coaching psychology. There are textbooks. There are psychologists who are coaching psychologists.

There are, you know, graduate level uh classes and programs in coaching psychology that organizational psychologists get to go to and sports psychologists get to go to. about Lil me as a counseling psychologist. Nobody ever told me about any of this. Um, and then you know what what would happened in my private practice is that probably 90% of people coming in the door would benefit more from a coaching process than than a therapeutic process. And so anyway, after I worked through my feelings about that and embraced coaching and really like dove into it, began using it with clients, uh, eventually began teaching it to other clinicians because the need in our field is so great. I mean this is like a huge gap in our training.

Uh you know one of the things that I've learned over and over again in my own work but also in now teaching other therapists coaching competencies is really how how different it is. Uh certainly some overlap and some of the I mean we use counseling skills and coaching it's fine but like to actually facilitate the work is is different not just different ideas and different techniques. are having a different mindset are having a different type of relationship with clients honestly which is also part of what makes it work.

So there's a lot here for us and I'll just share and then we'll move on to the risks of course and the blur boundaries but I will share that compared to what I can offer people using a therapeutic orientation um that is not clinical mental health but you know talk talk therapy and using counseling principles to help people create the outcomes that they want right uh compared to using a coaching process. I will just tell you that a coaching process is much more effective. It is more direct. It is more expedient for clients in where they are coming in, where they want to be. And there's a a way there's a pathway to facilitate that work. It feels it feels really exciting.

And I think you know the other advantage here and I I still do this in my own work. You know, love clinical mental health. I believe in it. It is so important. And I also know in my role as a clinical supervisor um supporting therapists in not just being effective technicians, effective helpers, like being good at what we do, but there's also this other part which is like how are you doing? You know, like how are you feeling? Your career is one part of your whole life and working with therapists around holistic life design. Is your career feeling good to you or is it taking energy out of parts of your life? Is it creating stress, anxiety, pain? Who's kidding? Furious trauma, right? To the point where it's starting to impact you personally. So, let's talk about this.

And, you know, there are a lot of therapists that I meet with who are, you know, some some kind of burned out because this can be a very challenging profession. And I think that that can be especially true if you are in a hardcore clinical mental health type setting, like maybe you specialize in the treatment of PTSD or other um presenting issues that that are are hard. You know, they're serious severe depressive disorders. I mean, this is such important work. It's so valuable, but it it can be challenging. But not to say that we need to get out of the pool and go do something completely different. But I I have worked with so many providers who want to keep some of that but have a more diverse case load.

So even if they don't want to do only coaching, you know, to be able to do coaching with 10 clients a week where they earn more money. Honestly, the the work feels lighter and in many ways like more exciting and more fun. And there's um you know, people are are kind of moving and and growing and it's exciting for everybody. that also can sustain them to be able to have maybe 10 other clients a week who are insurance-based. You know, the the reimbursement rates are much much lower. It's it's also slower um harder work that that can be darker, but it's like so that can help us uh create some balance in the force.

So, okay, those are all advantages that I have heard uh clinicians talk about when it comes to moving into coaching and and certainly many of my experiences, but the risky parts are so real and I think that it is very important for any clinician considering moving into the space to be very very thoughtful and also be fully informed about what those risks are Because without that awareness and not just awareness but like backing it up with what does your website say, what does your paperwork say, what your practice policies, how are you doing notes with coaching clients versus therapy clients? Like these are all incredibly important above and beyond, you know, is the work that you're doing actually coaching?

Um because if it's ever called into question, you know, you there's a complaint filed against you or the state licensing board. Remember, anybody can file a complaint against your license. incent state licensing board is like but do it. You know, you really need to have a defensible um set of evidence honestly to support the fact that what you were doing was in fact coaching and that you are operating ethically and in an informed way and with a lot of excellence and how do we uh defend that? So, there is a lot here and beyond the scope of this podcast obviously to go through all of the things, but I'm going to give you a starter pack of these are the things that you should definitely be thinking about like baseline stuff.

I will also say there's a lot more here and uh for time to time through my organization the growth institute I do offer frequently free actually continuing education events that are much more substantial than I'm able to go into in a podcast type format um you know oftentimes 60 sometimes even 90 minutes and I did a full comprehensive training on blurred boundaries the differences between coach therapy where we go into all of the details Um, it awards 1.5 CEUs, both NBCC and APA, by the way. Um, and also gives you like a checklist of here's what to do in your practice. Uh, the last time I offered this was in August of this past year, and I'm probably going to do it again either at this fall or perhaps early winter. So, get in touch with me, stay in touch with me.

You can um, connect with me on LinkedIn. Just Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, reach out and and DM me even and we'll be connected there so you can see when I'm doing this again. And I also do a a newsletter on my site if you go to growingself.com/therapist. Sign up for my newsletter and I will be sure to, you know, like, hey, we have this thing coming up so that you can participate. Okay, so super fast break on the other side. We're going to go into the biggest risks and exactly what to do in order to mitigate them.

Okay. So now let's talk about how to understand the boundaries between therapy versus coaching and implement some best practices so that you can start to have like clarity and confidence when you are operating in these different roles. And I will also just say that this is one of the strategies. The reason that this feels so confusing to therapists frequently is because they don't really understand what coaching psychology is, how it is truly different from therapy. That there is no education and training around how to facilitate a coaching process.

And so when therapists are operating as coaches, we are simply bringing in what we know how to do as therapists and then thinking like this feels an awful lot like therapy because it is invariably without actual training and understanding of coaching. A therapist will essentially be running a therapeutic process without even realizing it. And and this creates a lot of anxiety because I think that therapists often understand that and like what am I doing? Right? And and you're not wrong. And I and I think there are reasons for this. Coaching is an unregulated profession. And god, 99.999999999% of the information publicly available about coaching um that you'll just find if you start researching this on your own are blog posts or things that the ICF is putting out, right?

And or I mean even like organizations where that teach coaching, they are not teaching coaching for therapists. They are talking to civilians who then move into a coaching space like what is coaching? So to be able to create clarity for us people who are in this and operating in a therapeutic or a counseling space day in and day out how is coaching different that is a totally different conversation and it's almost impossible to get good information about this. That is why just another free resource that I offer. I do information sessions for therapists who are curious about coaching psychology on an almost weekly basis to come in and be like okay here's what's going on. Answer questions do a deeper dive.

So, if you don't want to wait for that full blurred boundaries training, come on over to growingself.com/coach and you will find a landing page and in that there are opportunities to connect with me for an information session is totally free. Me and you know usually a small group of other therapists where we're like really going into this in a more deeper way. But at at any rate, so the the one big mistake is to not really understand what coaching is, how it works, how do we run this process, how is it different, how how do I show up in this space as a coach and not a therapist, how do I monitor myself?

And so step number one, if you are serious about offering coaching as a distinct service, you should take the time to answer those questions and really figure that out and go through a very high quality coach training program that is intended for therapists moving into the space to learn what a coaching model is. And as so like for example this might surprise you but just like there are different therapeutic orientations when it comes to psychotherapy. So we have psychonamic, we have cognitive behavioral, we have gestalt, we have all these things, right? The same is true with coaching. They have common elements of a coaching process but there are different like flavors of coaching.

And this in itself often times blows the mind of the students who come through my coach training program because they're like, "Oh, okay." And so they're being encouraged to like adopt a model and practice facilitating the steps and the stages of this coaching model. And there are interventions that are associated with each of these stages, different types of assessments just like you would learn if you were like, "Okay, I am going to be a cognitive behavioral therapist." you know that means something. You're running a process. You have a set of interventions and techniques and tools and you also have a theory of change like so what's the problem? What will be the solution?

So with a cognitive behavioral therapist, the the theory says, well, the problem is that the reason why my client is struggling or the patient, I guess I should say, is struggling is that they have maladaptive um thought processes that are false and are creating a lot of negative interpretations and emotionality. And by correcting the thoughts and teaching them how to do this, then we will help them feel better. paired with understanding which behaviors contribute to feeling bad and worse and down in a downward spiral and understanding the behaviors that lead to an upward spiral and and using those things. And so that that is what we're doing a cognitive behavioral therapy, right?

You may be surprised to know there is also a thing called cognitive behavioral coaching that utilizes many of those interventions but in a coaching specific framework that has different stages, different tools, different techniques, different expectations of clients and of us as facilitators and is also for a different purpose. And so uh by really getting familiar with what these are, how are they different, how to conduct them ethically and also using the competencies very important.

But I will also tell you that in my experience, the professional development required for a therapist to make this shift and when they are operating as a coach really authentically and truly operating like a coach requires an experiential component that can be difficult to get your arms around. So like for example, it's our coach training program. It's a 16week program. weeks one through eight, we're going through the coursework. We're having live classes. We're talking about all these things, right? Going in depth and uh you know, people are in it.

They're like, "Okay, yes." But then the the second 8week segment, we're actually doing a practicum where therapists in my program are being connected with four or five coaching clients for eight sessions, which will help them get the hours that they need to become a board-certified coach. It's part of the credentiing process, but also gives them that opportunity to do hands-on practice. And invariably, we still have our their our students who will will show up and realize that they are thinking like a therapist. They are relating to a client like a therapist. They are visualizing and conceptualizing the work like a therapist.

And and then this is so powerful because then you know experientially to come in and be like look at what's happening right now. Let's compare this to a coaching process. And it's only then that the light bulbs start to go off and beginning to really like change the way that they are thinking the way they're conceptualizing. So it's not just the knowledge it's like the professional identity development like self of therapist stuff. There's also self of coach stuff. That's really where we need to go because we are so deeply socialized and and um we there's so much practice in showing up like a therapist to show up in a different way. It's like it's it's weird and and honestly therapists require some support. So So that is what I would tell you is like do that work.

The other thing that is important I believe is to actually go through the trouble of getting a formal defensible credential because again say a state licensing board is like so how is this different than what you usually do? I know you're calling it coaching but kind of looks like therapy so please explain. You know even the fact that you have a defensible credential and there are just a couple in the US. There's the ICF coaching credential, which is uh typically designed for civilians coming into coaching. Their basic ICF, you know, certified coach credential requires a 60-hour coach training program. And it does go into counseling skills, a lot of counseling skills actually, but also some coaching skills.

But at least at least it's something you have some evidence that backs up what you're saying that yes, coaching is within the scope of my work. I have gone through a training program that has prepared me to deliver this effectively. I understand, you know, some of these differences by virtue of this training. That's great. Compared to the ICF though, I would actually recommend the BCC credential, board certified coach credential, which comes down from the National Board for Certified Counselors, Center for Credentiing and Education. They manage a number of different professional uh credentials, including clinical supervision. and they have a a career uh specialist designation, but they also manage board certified coach.

Now, it's very important to know that the board certified coach credential is not just for therapists. Anybody can also get the board certified coach credential. However, if you are not a therapist or or somebody like with the equivalent education and professional experience coming into this, you may require a 120hour coach training program just to meet the educational requirements. But for therapists like us, um you can attain it with a 30hour coach training program. And I would highly recommend looking for a program that is specifically here to teach professional therapists what they need to know about coaching psychology.

So you're not just getting the credential, but you're really also getting the visibility into the differences and and the ethical complexities that we face when we are operating in this space. So I think that's very important because that in itself adds a lot of weight to the defense ability um if it is ever called into question. So those are two things.

The third thing that is very very very important to know is this and and paperwork everything like flows from this. what you do with your business like one website, two websites, what do I do? Right? Comes comes from this, which is that as a licensed mental health professional who coaches, who offers coaching services. First, because you're licensed, you still have obligations and legal requirements that follow you no matter what you're doing or what you're calling it. So for example, even when I am doing business coaching or consulting, I'm still a mandated reporter. And if anybody told me that there was a really dangerous situation um you know that like met that threshold, I would need to put on my psychologist's hat and handle that as a mandated reporter.

Similarly, duty to warn, right? as a psychologist also. So say I'm taking a business consulting client. I have a therapist coming in the door saying, you know, like help help me figure out what to do with my private practice. You know, what's going on, which is something that I get asked to do, not uncommonly, but I have a different level of responsibility to assess my client and say, are there mental health issues that would prevent their ability to benefit from coaching, first of all? Um, and if so, I have a duty to recommend them into treatment or even coach them into treatment because I know that coaching is not going to be of benefit to them. And also, I think that there is an ethical mandate, not just do no harm, but also do good, right?

And I need to screen for goodness of fit. Technically, all coaches are supposed to do that. If you go to an ICF coach training, they'll be like, "If you have a client who really needs therapy, refer them to therapy." But, you know, I mean, not to throw shade on any ICF coaches, do but do they actually have training and clinical mental health assessment that would equip them to be able to assess like, oh, this person is actually dealing with a generalized anxiety disorder. I need to refer them, right? They don't they might not have that, but we do. And so, we we have to keep that.

The other thing is the responsibility to understand if there are safety concerns, if there are risks, um you know, things like serious substance use disorders, domestic violence, like like things that might be dangerous for people. So asking some of those questions because not only is it our responsibility like are there things going on with our coaching clients, it would really impede their ability again to benefit from the work progress like what what are those extenduating factors and and also you know in the event that your coaching client got blackout drunk and crashed a car into the side of a school bus.

I mean like some you know awful crazy thing happened and they are you know in in the hospital I'm like well you know my my therapist said and I give them your name or if their partner says well they talk to their therapist like once a week and you're you're a therapist you're you want I was their coach actually I was not their therapist but like the you know the social worker at the hospital is like hey we have this person there was just this incident like you know that we were putting them on a psychiatric hold uh will you consult with a the psychologist they they listed your name as a person to call. What do you do? Right? I mean what you do do is like you handle that situation responsibly as a mental health professional because that is your job.

So the point being if there is ever a problem, if there's ever a grievance, if something ever goes sideways, you will be viewed as a licensed mental health practitioner. And so it's not going to be what were you doing or not doing as a coach. it is what were you doing or not doing as a therapist. So it's really important to understand that. I think some one thing that really concerns me actually and that I I see is that therapists sometimes see all the advantages of coaching and all the opportunities which are considerable as we talked about in the beginning of this podcast.

But then imagine well if I call it coaching it's kind of a loophole right? you know, like I have this client, we have a great relationship, they're moving to a state that I'm not licensed in, so coaching, right? I I mean, or I want to get paid like three times when I'm getting paid right now, so let's do the same thing that I usually do, but we're going to call it coaching, right? And and so we we cannot do that as a way of saying, "Oh, okay. Well, I'm just not going to be a therapist anymore." and right using coaching as as the sort of you know fake invisible cloak because it it really isn't true. There have been grievances against therapists who coach.

There have been um I there are some recent investigations in my home state of Colorado where my understanding is that therapists who are offering coaching with the air quotes like a state licensing board is like show us your notes and that can get a little bit dicey especially if a therapist doesn't really know the difference between coaching and therapy and some of the differences and then how to show that all the way up and down the chain in terms of documentation, their process, their paperwork. work.

So, just know that. And and so some of the strategies that I advise is for therapists who coach to have a coaching specific disclosure statement, informed consent. Here's what you need to know about me. I am a licensed mental health professional. Here's my training. I am also a boardcertified coach. Here is my training. here is my basis to offer coaching services to you and take your money and why I have um a specialized expertise in XYZ niche which is in alignment with what it is that you're looking for and also here is what you can expect from me through the coaching process informed consent here is what you can expect from me in the event that you tell me about something that requires me to handle this like a therapist.

So because again like worst case scenario you meet with your coaching client in a state where you're not licensed and this person is you know all of a sudden decompensated fallen apart they are suicidal they need to be hospitalized you need to call cops get them to their house like right like that kind of situation and it surprised you you never did a clinical assessment this person shows up to the hospital is like oh but my therapist naming you and you don't have a signed disclosure statement where they know that if they tell you they're going to kill themselves, you're going to do something about that. And now they want to sue you because they're mad that you you called the the cops to their house and had them um on an involuntary hold for 72 hours.

Like I know that this sounds really scary. You're probably feeling anxious as I'm even saying this out loud, but you know, for a therapist in the coaching space, it can be very complex. And so that is a more extreme version of the complexities, but even low grade, you know, you're you're working with a coaching client and you're six sessions in and they make you aware of a very serious trauma history that they've never received treatment for. And they're very high functioning, but they are dealing with a lot of symptoms. They're not going to move forward in coaching until those are managed. And and now what do you do? Right? um the other way around.

You have somebody showing up at your therapy practice saying, "I I'm in therapy." Uh and then when you ask them, "What what is what are you hoping to get out of this?" They're like, "Well, you know what? It's it's really time for me to figure out what I'm doing with this next chapter of my life. My kids are leaving, you know, for college and I I really I need to reconnect with myself and figure out like who I want to be in this next chapter." Uh so we do that with therapy and then you know knowing understanding coaching be able to think yeah man I could help this person in such a more direct way if we were able to enroll them in a coaching process.

And so now I have a responsibility to help educate them about the differences between psychotherapy and coaching and offer them an option as like a consultation partner to see which they feel more comfortable with and and which would feel more directly in alignment with what they want to get out of it because there really are differences. So even that can create complexities for dual practitioners as before you even get into the the paperwork and and some of the processes. So that is a crash course and I know that's a lot of information all at once. Never fear, I have more resources for you. So as I mentioned, I do formal continuing education training events on this topic from time to time. Connect with me at my site growingself.com/therapists.

Uh you'll find all kinds of other podcast posts, blog articles, hopefully other things that interest you, free resources, access to continuing education events that I've done in the past, as well as a place to sign up for my weekly newsletter where you can get updates once more of these are coming down the pipeline. You can also connect with me on LinkedIn, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. And then um very lastly, come to an info session with me, growingself.com/coach.

And uh on a landing page, I think down towards the bottom, you'll see easy access to just jump in an information session with me. We'll meet live. We can talk about all this stuff face to face. You can get your questions answered and hopefully leave with a lot more clarity that helps you find your way. All right, but I hope this was helpful today. Thanks so much for tuning in to Love, Happiness, and Success for Therapists, and I'll be back in touch with you soon. Take care.