Resentment in a Relationship: What It’s Actually Telling You

Alyssa: I was in a relationship with a man who I had spent four years with, with me pointing the finger at him.

Dr. Lisa: Here’s something that’s always hard to hear but so true when we think about it. Understanding your patterns, especially in relationships, is not the same thing as being able to change them. You can know intellectually that you have co-dependent tendencies, for example, and you can have read every single, you know, Brene Brown book.

You can understand your attachment style. You can say all the things, but still in the moment you can engage in the same old reactions that perpetuate the same outcomes.

Alyssa: If they would just do the work, if they would just have the deep, meaningful conversations with me, if they would just spend quality time with me, if they just do the dishes for once- Mm-hmm

then we would be happy.

Dr. Lisa: And that can be really frustrating, especially with a codependency where you are over-functioning, over-giving, and sometimes unable to set boundaries or even leave a relationship that is really not working for you.

Alyssa: And so the way I define codependency is when you place your worth or your good feelings about yourself on someone or something outside of you.

And so then we can kind of see how, oh, I’m okay or I’m safe if I have good grades. I’m okay or I’m safe if I have, you know, a relationship with someone. That proves how lovable I am.

Dr. Lisa: We’re going to unpack these patterns particularly related to codependency with a very special guest, Alyssa Zander. She is a codependency not just expert, but storyteller who is on a journey of growth herself.

She’s a, a speaker, an author, and, uh, uh, has the podcast Codependency Alchemy, where she shares moments from her own life that illuminate the struggle and brings back helpful helpful strategies for, for you and her community of, is it 700,000 people, Alyssa?

Alyssa: It’s quite a lot of people these days, yes, at least on social media.

But in our community- Right … on Substack, it’s like 30,000. Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing. Well,

Dr. Lisa: congratulations, and thank you so much for joining me today for… I mean, this is an important conversation, obviously. It’s a big pain point for a lot of people, and, uh, let’s just start there. Why, why do you think that is?

Alyssa: Yeah. Thank you so much, one, for having me to speak on this because the pain point really is the shame that comes with-

Dr. Lisa: Mm …

Alyssa: confronting that this may be something that we are participating in unknowingly, unconsciously, and I think that’s why so many of us avoid it and push it away.

Dr. Lisa: Mm. So, okay, there’s so much to unpack here.

Certainly it doesn’t feel good for anybody to say, “Oh, I, I am co-creating the reality that I’m living in,” right? It, it’s, it’s much more, um, gratifying to say, “You are, you know- Mm-hmm … giving us this.” So that, that’s, you know, hard part number one. But, but the other thing that you’re saying is that there are all of these hidden blind spots that people have in these moments that they’re really not even aware of, and so that’s why bringing this pr- dynamic out into the light is such an important part of your mission.

I’m guessing, as a storyteller, there’s probably a story here which is also maybe an entry point. Would you be willing to share your, uh, journey into this that also shines a light on what codependency is and why this pattern is particularly tough?

Alyssa: Absolutely. So to your point, it’s so much easier to point the finger and say, “Well, if they would just do the work, if they would just have the deep, meaningful conversations with me, if they would just spend quality time with me, if they just do the dishes for once- Mm

then we would be happy.” Then we could enjoy our relationship. Then everything would be okay, right? So that was the relationship I was in. I was in a relationship with a man who I had spent four years with, with me pointing the finger at him. He was the reason. He, like, if he would just do yoga, if he’d just do the, the journaling, if he’d just go to therapy, you know, doing the things that I was doing to take care of myself.

And I had this hyper-fixation on him needing to be different in order for us to have a safe, secure, meaningful, intimate connection, relationship. And so what had happened was we, like most people, I think, in relationships, came up against, ugh, I’m basically living with a roommate. Like, there’s, there’s no intimacy.

Like, if anything, there’s just resentment. There’s, there’s less and less connection and more and more separation. And so eventually we broke up.

Dr. Lisa: Mm.

Alyssa: Now, fast-forward to a couple months later.

Dr. Lisa: There’s more.

Alyssa: There’s more. I’m boarding this flight, and he’s in the seat next to me.

Dr. Lisa: No.

Alyssa: Yes.

Dr. Lisa: I know Did, did one of you make that happen, or is this the universe conspiring to bring you back together again to address the unfinished business?

Like, what, what happened here?

Alyssa: I know. We actually had booked this flight before we had broken up. Okay. And so to honor our friends who we were going to visit, we decided to keep these seats, right? We decided to keep- Got it … these flights. But what was so annoying was that not only did he look great, he was like- So annoying

all the versions of him that I wanted him to be. Outgoing- No. Ugh … social, light, just, like, the happiest person in the world when the last four years it was like a deep, dark cloud was constantly looming over him.

Dr. Lisa: Oh my g- I, I am mad for you right now. I know. I can’t da- how dare you.

Alyssa: How dare you? How dare you be this thing that I’m like, “I, I said if you were just this when we were together, everything would be okay, but you’re constantly in a mood, constantly just not wanting to do anything.”

And what was frustrating the most was l- that the fact that he used to be that way before we started dating, it’s one of the reasons why we started dating, was because he was charismatic. We got along. There was that friendship, right? So as I’m sitting next to him on this flight, I’m having this realization.

He was this way before we started dating. He was this way after we stopped dating.

Dr. Lisa: Oh, I know where this is going now, Alyssa. I’m cringing internally. Okay, go ahead and say it.

Alyssa: I grab my journal immediately and start writing something that I had no idea was gonna change, like, the rest of my life. I wrote codependency at the top of the page.

First page of my journal. I have no idea why I wrote that at the time, like I can see now, but I considered for the first time that maybe- I had a part to play in this whole thing. I considered that maybe I was a part of the problem. Not the whole problem, not, not, it’s not m- fully my responsibility, but I hadn’t considered my role in things not working out.

Mm. And so seeing him in this, like, direct contrast of outside of the relationship and inside the relationship, I remember writing, “Was I the damp blanket over his flame?” My constant, like, need for him to be a specific way- Right … did that actually suffocate him and therefore us and our love and our connection?

Oh, gee. That’s how I got here.

Dr. Lisa: Well, wow, first of all, and thank you for sharing this story that I think a lot of people can relate to, myself included, right? We affect our relationships by virtue of the way that we are showing up. But I just wanna honor something here right now. I’m sure everybody else is thinking this.

What a incredibly brave and courageous thing to own. Mm. And how, how challenging that must have been in that moment. But I mean, on the one hand, it is empowering because- Right … if I have influence, then I have influence and I can control how I show up, right? That’s great, but at the same time, there, there must have been this…

I don’t know. What, what, how did you feel in that moment? I’m ima- I, I would feel guilty probably,

Alyssa: embarrassed. Both of those. Guilt, embarrassment, and I think the hardest part is the blurred lines between guilt and shame. Yeah. Right. You know? I’ve done something bad and, and I am bad. Like, I have caused this.

And as someone who I do, I’ve intellectualized myself through and through, that’s what I love to do the most, you know, I, I have anxious attachment. I have insecure attachment patterns, and so something I tend to do is take more responsibility than is my fair share. And that was the slippery sort of like slope and line that I had to walk very carefully of taking responsibility for my part, but not taking more responsibility than is my part, right?

Alyssa: Yeah. Because I think with insecure attachment styles and feeling responsible for other people, we can over … I mean, just like codependency, like over- overcompensate, you know?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: Self-abandon in that way by taking on more than is our share. Yes.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. And ugh, okay, so there is so much to discuss here, and we’re going to dig into all of this.

So many different threads to pull, right? At the heart of codependency is over-functioning, and one person is under-functioning. And, and you see this particularly coming out of addictions psychology, right? The Al-Anon movement, how is one person’s hypervigilance and desire to kind of prop up the other person actually maintaining their dysfunction.

Mm-hmm. And, and I don’t know if you know this about me. We didn’t do the, the full intro. My, my background, um, I’m a li- a licensed psychologist, but I’m also a licensed marriage and family therapist, and systemic psychology is a big part of what I do in practice. And that, the core premise is that we are all parts of a larger system, and the way any piece of that system behaves elicits a response in other parts.

And so you see this in under and over-functioning. But also, you bring up such a great point, which I’d love to talk about more, the, the direct correlation between anxiety and seeking to control in order to change the way that you feel. I so commonly see that when I do the relationship coaching, couples counseling.

In partners, where one person kind of intrinsically has a lot of anxiety, that core premise is if you were different … S- it’s not conscious. It, it is unconscious, but then I would finally feel the way that I want to feel, and there turns into this pursuit. And I’m hearing that as you went through this reflective process, you started to get your arms around some of that.

Mm-hmm. That’s huge.

Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Mm. To your point, I realized, because of course I wrote codependency down and ordered a dozen books on it to try to better understand it, ’cause even though I wrote it down, I didn’t know exactly what it meant. I’d heard it-

Dr. Lisa: Right …

Alyssa: but, you know, and like what you’re saying, Al-Anon groups and, and substance abuse and all of these books I read kind of had that same undertone, you know, talking about being in relationships or, or connections with people who struggle with substance abuse, and that wasn’t my experience with this partner.

And so it was really hard to bridge that gap in, in seeing myself in some of these books that I was trying to understand myself better through.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: But I did notice these overarching themes, like you’re saying, the underperforming, overperforming. Or remind me what you said, ’cause it’s the exact words

Dr. Lisa: that I’m thinking of.

Overfunctioning and underfunctioning- Overfunctioning … is, is, like- Thank you … the classic dynamic, yeah

Alyssa: Exactly. And, and so I actually wrote my own definition of codependency. Mm. And that is when it was like a light went off, and I was like, “Oh, I can see what I’m doing here. I am seeking safety.” And so the way I define codependency is when you place your worth or your good feelings about yourself on someone or something outside of you.

Mm. And so then we can kind of see how, oh, I’m okay or I’m safe if I have good grades. I’m okay or I’m safe if I have, you know, a relationship with someone. That proves how lovable I am. You know, our, our careers or how much money we have in our bank account dictates how successful we are based off of these beliefs and these attachments that we have to things externally-

Dr. Lisa: Yeah

Alyssa: that we think will provide us with safety.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, so-

Alyssa: And so I could see that parallel.

Dr. Lisa: Right. Right. I, I totally get that, that, uh, extrinsic self-worth to try to bolster a lack of intrinsic self-worth, that it wasn’t self-generated. Mm-hmm. It needed to come from other people, and that, and I often see this as well, you know, part of trying to get a partner to change is if you are different, then you will finally help me feel the way that I want to feel ’cause I can’t do it by myself.

Alyssa: Exactly. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa: So if you’re open to this- Mm-hmm … I would love to unpack this further. And, and again, Alyssa, I’m, I’m happy to share stories about my own life. I mean, you know, I’ve, I’ve done plenty of this myself, and I, I don’t want it to make you feel like we’re, we’re dissecting Alyssa right now, you know, because I think that this is all so relatable.

But I, I’m grateful for your sharing examples, again, and happy to share my own. But I, I guess I am so curious to hear more about your, what you pieced together over time, I’m guessing, about how these very understandable emotional needs that you were being driven by, what that turned into in terms of how you were actually showing up in that dynamic between you and y- your partner.

That influenced how he behaved, because you’re saying there was an A-B-A comparison. There was who he was before. Mm-hmm. There was him in this dynamic, which is very common, by the way. People often-

Alyssa: Mm-hmm …

Dr. Lisa: show up differently when they are with different people because of exactly what you’re talking about.

But then in the absence of that relationship, he kind of fluffed back out again and became what, what may have been himself all along. What was going on during that middle phase when you were ironically working so hard to make him be what you, you were hoping or what you felt like you needed? Mm-hmm.

Right? What was going on?

Alyssa: So I… There’s dozens, right? But I think that most relationships have, like, one core thing that tends to happen over and over and over again. And what was the thing that happened pretty consistently in our relationship was I would perceive, I’m gonna use that word because it’s my perception-

Dr. Lisa: There’s that ownership again.

I love it.

Alyssa: Mm-hmm. I perceived him to be not okay, maybe in a mood, maybe unhappy, maybe grouchy, based off of, you know, maybe how many hours he was spending in front of the computer or, you know, scrolling on his phone. I perceived that as him not okay or not wanting to spend time with me. And so my anxiety is, “I need to fix this.

I have to try to make him okay. I need to get him out of his shell.” So I would, uh, make meals that I thought would make him happy, right? I would schedule things with friends that I thought would make him happy. I’m, like, trying to figure out what will make him happy. I’m trying to fix- Mm … his mood because I am perceiving it to be a problem.

I’m perceiving that he’s in a mood to begin with. And so I think what happened for us is that my constant need to fix him did a couple things. One, it fueled my need to be needed. I’m the problem solver. I’m the one that can fix this. Like, if he needs me all the time, then I am safe because he needs me to survive, right?

There’s that unconscious layer. But I think also my constant need to fix him and whatever he was feeling did something to him, which is, “I can’t experience what I’m feeling because it makes this person uncomfortable.” And so then there’s this alienation, I think, that happens on both parts. He is still in the mood, so I don’t feel like what I’m doing is good enough, ’cause if it was, he wouldn’t be in a mood.

Alyssa: And then he’s feeling alienated because I’m always trying to fix his mood. He can’t just feel what he’s feeling, so his emotions are also not good or too much perhaps- Mm-hmm … that now we both feel alienated, now we both don’t feel seen, and now there’s this wall between us, right? So- It’s interesting because what I notice time and time again, not only in my own relationship and experiences, but even people who I work with, the thing that we fear the most is oftentimes what we perpetuate through our actions and trying to, like reconcile or, or try to make it sure it doesn’t happen.

You know, not realizing what we might be saying underneath it all, right? Like the subtext- Yes … of what it is saying. I am uncomfortable with your discomfort, so you need to change.

Dr. Lisa: Mm. And I’m, I’m sure you encountered this as you began doing what sounds like amazing work, Alyssa, to bring all this out into the light.

Oh, thank you. This, um, emotional enmeshment-

Alyssa: Mm-hmm …

Dr. Lisa: is, is what you’re describing, where I need you to feel a certain way so that I can feel a certain way, and this hyperfixation on controlling and managing the moods of the other person, going back to that, like co-regulation idea. And, and you gained visibility into not just the fact that this was happening, but also a ton of insight into why you were doing

Alyssa: it.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lisa: And it makes perfect sense. Yeah. Yeah. ‘

Alyssa: Cause I mean, at the time I didn’t know that I was trying to co-regulate. Yeah. Even that knowing would’ve changed everything, ’cause I could have gone to him and said, “Hey, the story I’m telling myself is that you’re annoyed with me. Is that true?” Like, getting to reality check myself and have that moment of co-regulation with him because I can understand and…

Or because I have awareness really, ’cause I have awareness that I’m feeling discomfort. But instead of making him responsible for it, I’m owning it, and then allowing him to meet me in it instead of trying to get that need met without his consent really. Without his buy-in. That’s it. Yeah. Without, without his ability.

Right. Wow. I have to tell you. Oh. I have to tell you that this person who I’m talking about, the one that I was sitting on the flight with, he’s my fiance now. So we’ve actually been together for longer than we were the first half of our relationship. So I’ve actually gotten to take everything I learned in that breakup and apply it, and see just how much being on the other side of it, and just awareness alone changes everything.

It can change the com- like the, the entire dynamic of the relationship when we have awareness- Incredible … of the ways that this unconsciously kinda runs our relationships.

Dr. Lisa: So Alyssa, you were talking about this really powerful journey of exploration and growth that you went through that helped you, um, in a, in a very just authentic and courageous way connect the dots, bring it back to yourself to say, “Oh, here’s what was going on inside of me that motivated me to do X, Y, Z that had this detrimental impact on my relationship.”

And you said, “But I did some work, I made some changes, and we had this beautiful new era” — and we’re gonna dig into this next. So tell us, what happened next? You settle down on this plane beside this beautiful man that you were like, “I know you. You’re the guy that I liked in the first place, and now you’re back.”

What happened?

Alyssa: It, it didn’t happen in that moment. It happened y- another six months later. Hmm. That moment propelled, I think, the inward journey that I needed to go on.

Dr. Lisa: Um- I see …

Alyssa: it, it started the- It gave you the data … excavating. Exactly.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: It gave me the, the opportunity to begin excavating. And so then I spent the next half of a year, I mean, I’ve got journals and journals and journals of, of looking at my patterns, seeing what was underneath it, realizing how much I had placed my safety in the hands of things external, externally.

Not just him, with work, and with my family, and all of these different threads, right? And i- it just so happened that we ran into each other that winter, and he approached me with, “Hey, I’ve been doing a lot of thinking.” I had no idea that we would get back together. It wasn’t even a thought in my mind. Not because I didn’t love him, but we had a very clean breakup.

Alyssa: It was a very, like, we’re both going in separate directions. So there, we didn’t leave any ambiguity in our breakup, which I think was actually very helpful for me to, to not- Yeah … be like, “Oh, I need to get better so that I could get back with him.” There wasn’t that, and I think that was actually really helpful for me in my journey.

But when he approached me, he was, like, very calm, this steady You know, person. It didn’t feel graspy or clingy, like, “I just need to get back together with you.” It was just like, “Hey, I’ve done a lot of thinking, and I think that there is something here that we could work out.” And I had just worked out a bunch of things, right?

So I’m like, “Maybe there is something here.” So that started the conversation, but realistically, we had to sit down and ask ourselves, “If we want a different outcome, then we’re need- going to both need, both need, both need to be different. So what are you going to do that’s different, and what am I going to do that’s different?”

Dr. Lisa: I’m so… I’m sorry, I’m having trouble restraining myself right now- … because I am so thrilled to hear you articulate this. So, uh, so, so I, I have a couple of, of questions for you, but I, I just wanna pause here for a second. And so, you know, um, so pa- part of my work as a, a marriage counselor and couples therapist, many times people come in the door because their relationship really feels like it’s on the brink to the point where they need to make some decisions about- Yeah

do we even wanna do this anymore? And there are certainly specialized types of, of counseling and coaching that can help people get clarity around their next best steps. And sometimes the answer is, let’s give it another try. But without doing the work that you are describing, like verbatim, it is never going to be different because to have a second act that is meaningfully different requires both people examining What was creating problems in the first place, and then what have we done to transform ourselves so that we’re pretty confident we’re not going to engage in those behaviors before?

Not just the way we, we think and feel, but also the way we behave, and how are we going to intentionally operate differently so that we get a better outcome with each other? And if, if people cannot answer those questions with significant detail and a plan- Mm … it isn’t gonna be different. And just the fact that you put all that together is incredible.

Alyssa: Yeah. It’s, I’m, I’m so, so grateful for it ’cause we were just winging it, honestly. So thank goodness. Thank goodness- Yeah … it all worked out.

Dr. Lisa: Amazing.

Alyssa: Uh, but to, to your point, like there does need to be detail. I can’t just be like, “I want this, and I want it to be different.” You can’t want it.

Dr. Lisa: Right.

Alyssa: You have to know exactly what you’re going to do.

And something that I think really helped us in the beginning is we both identified the over-functioning, the under-functioning, and how it, how are we going to, one, show up differently in that, and then how are we as the partner where we’re breaking this pattern, I’m gonna forget and I’m gonna over-function.

That’s going to happen because it’s in my nature, and I just have that tendency. So instead of judging myself for that, can you, my partner, be that mirror to remind me those moments where I might be under-functioning? And then can I be the mirror for you to illuminate when you might be under-functioning?

Dr. Lisa: Mm.

Alyssa: Right?

Dr. Lisa: Right. Right.

Alyssa: And so that was really helpful for us to acknowledge that and come up with a plan of exactly what we were going to do to support each other. And we still do this practice today. It’s different ’cause it’s six years later. Yeah. But, you know, there are certain things that I’m trying to do differently, and I ask for his support for those moments- Right

when I forget. But I have to ask myself, how do I receive support? ‘Cause it’s different than how- Yeah … he receives support. Me, I’m like, “I need a hug.” Like, “I need you to give me a hug, rub my back, and remind me why I’m choosing a different way when I forget.”

Dr. Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: Right? Where he’s like, he needs more like, you know, heavy-hitting, like remind me, like lock in, you know?

Like, he just needs to receive that different. Where if you say that to me, you know, I’m gonna like, I’m gonna curl up and I’m gonna feel not seen,

Dr. Lisa: so it- Why are you

Alyssa: yelling at me?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, why are you yelling at me? Yeah.

Alyssa: Yeah. I

Dr. Lisa: don’t…

Alyssa: Am I in trouble, you know? Ah. Uh, so, so learning what the language that we both receive from- Mm-hmm

and then, and then being that support for each other.

Dr. Lisa: Mm. Melissa, there’s, there’s just so much, uh, uh, things happening right now that I’m, like, a- astounded by it. It’s so good. But, like, you’re, what you’re also describing is a not just intentional but very consensual agreement- that you are going to be supporting each other in the growth that you both desire.

Mm. Because I just wanna say that you could do exactly the same thing, say, “I’m gonna reflect back to you right now that I’m experiencing you this way,” or I need, uh, whatever it is. But if there hasn’t been that consent around, “This is how we’re agreeing that we wanna be together, and I’m giving you my explicit permission to say these things to me in this moment,” that exact same thing is going to be re- received as, like, nagging or, uh, you know, criticism or whatever.

But wow, you turned that into this, like, engine of growth for the both of you.

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lisa: That’s so cool.

Alyssa: Yeah. It is, it is really cool. And it, and it’s not always- Mm-hmm … perfect. You know? For sure. Like, you know, some… And I think that’s, that’s something we can get stuck on, is like- Yeah … oh, well it didn’t work this time.

And it’s like, well, life is- Right … life, and everything is circumstantial. And so in this moment it not, may not have worked. Can you read the cues and just say, like, “How can I support you right now?” Like, that’s been the most helpful thing for me whenever I perceive him being in a mood now, because it’s not like he’s never in a mood, but how I responded before was assuming what he needs.

And so in order for… And that’s my over-functioning, right? So if for me to make sure that I’m not doing that, I need to, um, I don’t wanna say I need to, but, like, I get to ask him, “What can support you right now? What do you need- Mm … to feel supported right now? How can I show up for you right now in a way that would feel supportive?”

And that has been really helpful in our relationship, because I, I realize that the only way that this relationship works is if we do the antithesis of codependency, which is sovereignty for me. Mm. Sovereignty and autonomy. So that means- Yeah … he gets to feel whatever he feels.

Dr. Lisa: Right.

Alyssa: And it’s okay.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

You be you. Right. Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: I get to feel whatever I feel, and it’s usually- Yeah … not great when he’s in a mood. But can I meet myself in that, in that moment, instead of making him responsible for it? Again,

Dr. Lisa: sovereignty Can I meet myself in that moment? Can I soothe myself without him being responsible for it?

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lisa: That, that’s what we’re gonna cross-stitch on the pillow and put it right in the middle of the living room. That’s so good. Yeah. Yeah. Because without it, there is this power struggle, an effort to control and make someone else conform, that creates so many yucky relational dynamics. Okay. It’s

Alyssa: true.

Dr. Lisa: So I, I want to continue moving forward in this, but I also, just for the benefit, Alyssa, of our friends that are, are with us in this conversation right now, friends who have been, you know, experiencing what you were experiencing in that time before, and are listening to this and thinking, “Oh, maybe some of this is going on in my relationship.

Maybe I could also make some of these changes, if Alyssa can do it.” Like, you’re giving them hope. You’re inspiring them- Mm … showing them the way. I have to ask you a really important question that I think is one of the, the most key, critical elements that can tip the difference between whether or not somebody gets to go on this journey of growth, whether or not they stay stuck, if it’s okay.

Alyssa: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lisa: In my experience, when people are operating the way that you say you were in the time before you did all this amazing work, that there was, uh, a- anxiety, there was self-worth that you were trying to get met through your partner, co- codependence, trying to get him to do things differently, it often feels to people who are In that space, like a lot of resentment, anger, irritability, even hostility sometimes, criticism, contempt, that is very other directed.

Dr. Lisa: Like to put it simply, you feel angry with your partner a lot of the time. Mm-hmm. Was that true for you?

Alyssa: 1000%. Yeah, very much true. I would say the biggest feeling that I experienced above all of them was resentment. Uh, I even had a moment today where I was starting to feel resentful. Like, it still comes up in my life now.

It’s what I share a lot on Codependency Alchemy, the podcast, because it’s, it’s s- this is a journey. Like- Yeah … there, there are things that are gonna come up, and-

Dr. Lisa: Sure …

Alyssa: I was, uh, I was getting out of the shower, putting my face oil on, and I was just thinking, I love making the bed every morning. It, it’s like the thing that I want done in our house.

And I was like, “Why do I always have to make the bed? Why doesn’t he just make the bed?” Or if I’m feeling resentful, I’ve gotten really good at saying, “Hey, can you help me make the bed? And we’ll make it together,” right? Um, or if I really don’t wanna make it, I’ll ask him to do it. But in this moment this morning, I was like, why do I even have to ask him?

Why can’t he just do it, right? Because it’s not made, right? Every, every day I make it, so clearly I want it made. And it was beautiful ’cause I got to have this conversation with him post this moment, but the… I’m still blown away that this happened. I opened the bathroom door, and guess what? The ba- the bed is made.

He made it when I was at the gym this morning.

Dr. Lisa: Man. There’s, there’s like magic happening in this relationship on a regular basis. I just wanna say that, but uh-huh.

Alyssa: But the reason why I think there’s magic happening is because I’ve gotten a lot better at communicating how I receive support, and it’s through these acts of service, through these things.

When I left this morning to go to the gym, I said, “I have a very full schedule today. I’m feeling a little overwhelmed. Just so you know, that’s what I’m experiencing.” He knows a clean he- house helps my anxiety because I’ve communicated that to him. So when I got home, what had he done? He had tidied the house.

Because I had, I have, not just once, this isn’t like I told him one time six years ago, this is how I continuously- Mm … tell him that I, ways that I receive support.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: And I think that w- in the first half of our relationship, I didn’t communicate those things ’cause it’s a very vulnerable thing to communicate, “Hey, this is how I can receive support.

This feels good to me.” Because the fear is that I’m gonna tell you this, and you’re not gonna do it, and you’re just gonna validate that what I want is not, is too much.

Dr. Lisa: Right.

Alyssa: Right? So then we just don’t even ask. Mm. We want them to be mind readers. We want them to know, just know that that’s what we would want because of course we would, right?

And so I made sure today to go and tell him, “Thank you so much for making the bed. Yeah. That brought me so much joy, and I really appreciate you taking the moment to do that without me asking.”

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely.

Alyssa: Like, just letting him know, and I don’t think that we do that enough.

Dr. Lisa: Right.

Alyssa: And when I was debriefing this, I’m sorry I’m telling you the whole s- this whole thing- No, it’s great.

Dr. Lisa: It’s

Alyssa: great … this whole moment now. But we debriefed this after. I was like, “You know what’s interesting is that…” I did this at a neutral time, by the way, not in the moment of, of validating him, because I want him to have that moment.

Dr. Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: But later this afternoon, I said, “You know what is interesting is I was just berating you in my mind, like, before that.”

And he was like, “That’s so interesting. Why do you s- why do you think you do that, or why does that come up?” And I don’t know that I have an answer for it in this moment, but he was telling me, you know, how many things do I do that you don’t ever have to think about doing? Because I just do them. And he goes, “I never think, Oh, I have to take out the trash again.

Alyssa never takes out the trash.” He- I just take it out. And, and this has come up in our relationship before. Like, there are certain things that are a priority to me that just aren’t a priority to him.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: And I think the issue is that we have made it personal.

Dr. Lisa: Yes.

Alyssa: That you don’t care that the dishes are done.

We’ve taken it personally that you don’t care- Sure … if there’s dog hair over, all over the ground, when really-

Dr. Lisa: Well, the extension is you don’t care about me-

Alyssa: You don’t care about me …

Dr. Lisa: because- Mm-hmm … you experience being taken care of and being loved by these actions. And when they are- Right … absent, it’s like somebody said out loud, “I don’t like you.”

Alyssa: And that-

Dr. Lisa: And so I

Alyssa: kind of went off… Oh, go ahead. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa: Oh, no, no, no. Uh, uh, that he doesn’t have that same association.

Alyssa: Well, I was gonna say, I think I, I s- I steered us off topic- No, it’s great … ’cause you said resentment did, resentment- Yeah … came up. And yes, resentment come, came up there and then, then, and it comes up now too.

And it’s usually when I am dysregulated or not resourced. So if I can first regulate myself and resource myself, get to the root of whatever I’m making the situation mean- Yeah … him not making the bed, what am I attaching to that? I have a whole practice that I now teach that it’s like, it’s the thing that I go to every time I’m triggered in my relationship because it’s the how.

Okay, well, how do I g- step out of these patterns and into new ones? You have to understand them and then hold space for the part of you that acts out, out in those patterns.

Dr. Lisa: Amazing. Alyssa, this is fascinating. I am hanging onto your every word, and you are just such a beautiful, shining example of what this looks like in action.

She has done so much work on herself, on her relationship, and now she is sharing her playbook with you. I don’t know about you guys, but I’ve been so inspired by this story.

So Alyssa, thank you for, for sharing all of this, not just with me today, in our community here on Love, Happiness, and Success, with so many other people. It’s, it’s- Of course … very hope instilling.

Alyssa: Oh. It’s, and it’s a privilege and an honor. My, my biggest hope is that other people can just leave after hearing my story with some curiosity, right?

Just curiosity for the role that they play in their relationships, because- Yeah …

Dr. Lisa: it’s, like you said in the very beginning, like, it’s both empowering, you know- Mm-hmm … and maybe guilt and shame, but

Alyssa: hopefully in hearing my story, there’s some comradery in it, that you’re not alone, that a lot of other people experience this-

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, yeah

um,

Alyssa: as, as well.

Dr. Lisa: So then again, for, for our friends who are listening, you know, in, in the last segment you did such a good job of talking about what it feels like internally when we are actually engaging in one of these old patterns, that experience of resentment and anger, that you did such a beautiful job of, of articulating how it is directly tied to feeling unloved, uncared for.

And I think this is a great reminder for all of us, that anger is always a protective emotion. It feels like you’re being harmed, right? And so before you went on this, this journey that you had, the primary experience was that resentment, like, why couldn’t you X, Y, Z? And now certainly it flares up, but you know what to do with it when it does, and we’ll talk more about that.

But for the benefit of people who need to make this pivot, I, I know from my experience as a marriage counselor that when people are telling themselves the story that supports anger and resentment, typically one in which they are being victimized, mistreated. Not to say that, like, capital A abusive relationships aren’t a real thing, they are, so I want to set that aside.

Dr. Lisa: But in the context- Mm-hmm … of normal relationship dynamics, it is that mindset that prevents people from taking the kind of ownership that you did. So what was the new story you started telling yourself after that fateful day on the plane that gave you a new possibility that allowed you to actually feel differently and reach for something be- besides that reflexive anger that would have overtaken you before?

Alyssa: So this is gonna be worth… Yeah, this is gonna be worth writing down, everyone.

Dr. Lisa: Oh, take

Alyssa: some

Dr. Lisa: notes, y’all.

Alyssa: Take some notes. Resentment is your indicator that you have done too much. Resentment is your indicator that you’ve done too much. I’ve overextended myself in some way. I haven’t asked support, for support where I needed it.

I’m giving, giving, giving and not asking for anything in return, or not allowing myself to receive anything in return. That was a powerful shift, because resentment is something that I think a lot of women, you know, especially in relationships who are te- they tend to be the over-functioners in a lot of ways, not always, but a lot of times.

We’re very familiar with resentment- We’re very familiar with that feeling. So if you can identify the story, which is why can’t they just do the thing, or why do I always have to do the thing? If we can pinpoint the, the language that we tend to use, and then also pinpoint what that somatically feels like in our bodies, and then remind ourselves that resentment is our indicator that we’ve done too much, it gives us the long, a pause long enough to reflect back, right?

‘Cause it’s resentment is my indicator that I’ve done too much, so now I need to g- the question turns us inward when we’re, we primarily focus outward.

Dr. Lisa: Amazing. A- and that, that changes everything. If I am feeling resentful, it means that I need to take several steps back here right now.

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lisa: And that is where empowerment starts.

That’s where you have agency over yourself again, and stop being so other focused, because- Right … we can only control ourselves.

Alyssa: Yeah. Mm-hmm. So if I’m feeling resentful at the kitchen sink because I’ve done the dishes for the fifth time today, I’m gonna notice that resentment, and I’m gonna reflect that back to me.

Okay, I’m feeling resentment, which means that I’m doing too much. I need to not do these dishes, and either just let them sit… Like, there’s two options, right? Just let them sit, and create safety for myself that it’s okay that they’re not done.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: Or I need to ask for help. “Hey, next time you’re in the kitchen, please do the dishes.

Thank you.”

Dr. Lisa: Just out of curiosity, at what point do we need to make space for our partner’s preferences?

Alyssa: I think always, right? Always we… If we want to be in a healthy, loving, reciprocal relationship, that requires us to honor autonomy.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: And so oftentimes, if… The way that I approach these conversations or the way that me and Justin approach these conversations is, this is what I’m desiring.

I’m desiring support. What are some ways that you can support me that feel good for both of us? ‘Cause maybe it’s not dishes. He’s like, “I would rather do literally anything else,” right? And I think before I had a specific thing in my mind that this, this, this, this is, is how I receive support. And so for me, I started asking, “What are ways that you support me that feel good for you?”

And I started realizing, oh my gosh, there’s all these other ways that I just wasn’t looking at, because I was looking over here. So I think if we can start having those conversations, again, at neutral times, not when it’s the heat of the moment. Mm,

Dr. Lisa: mm-hmm.

Alyssa: But at dinner, when we’re… When you’re out at dinner, or when you’re going for your evening walk.

Uh, sometimes I’ll ask him, “What are some things I did this week that made you feel loved, that made you feel supported?” That’s sweet. And last time I did this with him, we don’t do it every day, but we do it, like, seldomly. He was like, “Oh, you brought, you brought coffee to me the other morning when I was on a call for a long time.

That was, that was so nice.” And now I’m like, oh, that meant something to him. He clocked it. And so now what am I doing? Every once in a while, not every time, I’m not, like, now bringing him coffee every day. But every once in a while, if I’m getting coffee and I’m, have some free time, like, I’ll go and top off his coffee, ’cause I learned that that means something to him.

And then vice versa. So where can we open this dialogue to not only talk about problems, which is what I think we’re used to doing- But talk about things that helped us feel good this week.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: Things that they did that- That’s amazing … that helped us feel supportive or supported.

Dr. Lisa: Thank you for taking us into this, and again, just like sharing such a, a great example, a, a common relatable example of a different way to handle this whole thing.

So I know that I don’t have unlimited time with you. I want to be respectful of your time, and, and just thank you again for such a fantastic conversation so far, but, but I also wanna make sure that, um, you have the opportunity to share some of, uh, the additional specific things that you started doing.

And, uh, Alyssa, I also wanna say out loud that this is not one thing. I mean, even just talking with you, this is a very well-designed ecosystem of how to show up differently that starts with a lot of internal work, and I, the, we don’t, I don’t want to oversimplify this for anyone. Mm-hmm. But what I do want is some conversation, if you’re open, to share a couple of ideas or practices.

For one of our friends here right now who is sitting in that yucky place in the time before, they’re experiencing a lot of resentment, they feel very stuck, and they know something needs to change, what are a couple things that they could begin doing that might start generating a more positive response that ideally would build, build on itself and start an upward spiral?

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lisa: That’s not an easy answer, but-

Alyssa: It’s, it’s not. But- Yeah … I, but it’s an important one. It’s the m- Yeah … the most important one- Mm-hmm … question, you know, that was asked today. What I’m gonna share is a practice that I continue to go to and that I teach in our community, because if we don’t have awareness and an understanding of ourselves, then if we don’t ch- tend to, I’m not gonna say change, but if we don’t tend to our internal landscape, then changing the external landscape is going to be near impossible.

Or- Partly … we’re just gonna bump up against the same thing over and over. So I always think that the most advantageous thing that you can do when you’re in that stuck, that resentment, that anger, is to understand what is underneath the story, the issue, whatever the problem that you’re experiencing. So I created this for myself initially.

This is something that I used as a tool for myself every time I got triggered in my relationship. It’s a practice that I use to come back home to myself. It’s a practice that I use to regulate my nervous system, and also get out of the me that’s a victim in the situation and into the me that can hold the part of me that feels like a victim in the situation, right?

Yeah. And so it’s, it’s bridging two amazing practices, shadow work and inner child healing, specifically with a bridge of somatics in between. Mm-hmm. So what I tend to do when I have a trigger, I’ll just walk you guys through it. Do you have, like, an example of, like, a issue or a- Oh my gosh … I feel like

Dr. Lisa: You know, I, I’m probably on the more avoidant end of the spectrum, honestly.

Yeah. So I, I think in my relationship I’m less likely to get triggered by something than my partner is, honestly. Um- Yeah … but, uh, like a common example, I, I mean, I think honestly just the, the, the thing that you were describing, like there’s, there’s a thing around the house or something- Mm … hasn’t been done and, and it is associated with a, “I have to do everything,” or- Mm-hmm

you know, “This means, um, you don’t care about me because this is important to me.” Mm-hmm. I, I, that dynamic has occurred in, in my own relationship, and I see it all the time in couples. So maybe we could start with that one.

Alyssa: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That’s great. So the way that I pose these questions is through an if/then, which we kinda talked earlier about.

Dr. Lisa: Uh-huh.

Alyssa: If he doesn’t do the dishes, if-

Dr. Lisa: She. Uh, so s- say sorry, Alyssa … he doesn’t do the dishes- If she doesn’t do the dis- like let’s- If- Well, we’re really

Alyssa: talking here I mean, they. They. Yeah. Yeah. Like if they, whoever

Dr. Lisa: they is. Well, in my house, I, I- Mm-hmm … I’m the one that fails to do the dishes. Right. So yeah.

Alyssa: Right. Right. So I wish it could be me. Um, I cannot leave dishes in the sink for the life of me. It’s like, it’s just such a pet peeve. It’s crazy. I

Dr. Lisa: don’t even notice them. It’s awful.

Alyssa: Right. Yeah. It’s so funny. So yeah, if they don’t do the dishes, then what am I making it mean about me? Okay?

Dr. Lisa: I have… Okay, I’m gonna voi- Go ahead

my, the voice of my husband. Do it. I, I have to do everything.

Alyssa: I have to do everything. Then if I have to do everything, then what am I afraid will happen?

Dr. Lisa: That’s a good que- um, if I have to do, then, then I am being mistreated, uh, disrespected. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Alyssa: Mm-hmm. And if I’m being mistreated or disrespected, then What am I afraid will happen?

Dr. Lisa: It’s intolerable that I, I can’t exist in a situation where I’m not being respected and, and, and treated well. Yeah.

Alyssa: If I can’t exist in a situation that I’m being mistreated in, then what am I making it mean about me? See, and no one goes here. Yeah. No one goes here. It’s im- They go, they go the dishes, and they go, “I have to do everything.”

That’s as far as they get.

Dr. Lisa: Right, right.

Alyssa: But it’s attached to something so- Yeah … much more intrinsic.

Dr. Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: So you can go there if you want.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well, I mean, so I’m, I’m trying to h- honestly, like channel, like what, what would Matt say right now? I mean, it’s probably like this, the, it would be a, a unsustainable situation that has to change.

Alyssa: Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Or what? And if you don’t seek to change it… I’m gonna ask him.

Alyssa: Yeah. It’s, it’s a great question. So I mean, it’s a little harder ’cause you’re kind of doing it for your partner, but-

Dr. Lisa: Yeah …

Alyssa: the, the point of, and this is still shadow work. We’re still in the shadow work section. Mm-hmm. If they are in a mood, then I need to fix it.

Alyssa: If I don’t fix it- Yeah … then I’m not safe. If I’m not safe, then something is going to happen to… I’m, I, I s- Mm … I see, I, I’m gonna die. Like, I’ll see this through to this. Like, it gets, it gets very- Yeah … existential. Like, that’s kind of the core for everyone, right? I end up alone. Right. Then what’s the point- Mm

of living, right? Mm. If we can get there to that root and just see all the attachments, that’s when I start developing a little bit of compassion for- Yeah … myself because I’m like, “Oh, this isn’t about the dishes. This is all of this.”

Dr. Lisa: Mm-hmm. And sometimes-

Alyssa: Right … it’s attached to a lot of stuff. So just taking a moment to see, whoa, okay, there’s a lot here.

Dr. Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: Now I’m not gonna come to my partner with, “Do the dishes.” I’m gonna come to my partner with, “I feel like if you don’t do this, then this terrible thing is gonna happen.” Mm. If this is what it’s all attached to, this is the meaning I’m making about it. But to be honest, when I do the shadow work inner child practice, I hardly ever need to go have this conversation with my partner because I’ve resolved it within myself, and this is where we step into the sovereign, autonomous- Mm

relationship with self. You create a secure relationship with yourself, and then your external relationship reflects that. Mm. So I don’t tend to have these conversations with Justin very often. If I have, like a huge epiphany, maybe I’ll share it with him from that, like, whoa, this was, like an epiphany I had in this moment, but not usually attached to whatever the initial issue was.

Dr. Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Alyssa: Um, so after getting to the root of it- I guide myself or clients through the next piec- piece, which is where does this fear live in your body, right? The fear of ceasing to exist, or the fear of being alone, or the fear of not being good enough. Live in your body. What does it look and feel like moving through a somatic experience?

Because we live in our mind, and I’m a very heady person, so this bridge of a practice of shadow work, inner child somatic healing- Mm-hmm … helps me get out of my mind, but it’s satisfies that itch to understand- Yeah … and intellectualize. But then it helps me ease into, okay, now can I listen to my body’s wisdom?

What’s there? Right. Yeah, absolutely. And then I have series of questions that, that go into the inner child practice, which-

Dr. Lisa: Sure …

Alyssa: yeah, I mean, uh, I don’t know if we have enough time to go into it today, but that’s changed my life. And I have- Incredible … clients who’s, you know, it’s changed their m- marriages.

I’ve had people come to me just on the brink of divorce, like, “If this doesn’t change, then we’re gonna, this isn’t gonna work,” you know? And now they’re, y- they’ve had their third child, for example. You know, like, child that was not on the horizon ’cause things were ending. And then doing this inner work and ha- just having a practice to go to every time you’re triggered is a game changer.

It is so, so helpful. We can’t just hope for it. Right. Like, we need tangible practices and tools where we can be like, “I’m triggered. I have something I can use.”

Dr. Lisa: Yes. “

Alyssa: Let me excavate this and get curious.” And, uh, it takes like five minutes, 10 minutes if you answer all the questions, you know?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. But it’s, it’s brilliant, though.

Oh, oh, I’m sorry. D- you were about to

Alyssa: say? No, it’s just, it’s just interesting what you find. Like, o- over… I, I’ve done it with, uh, over hundreds of people at this point. Yeah. And they’re alway- they always end with, “I had no idea that was there.”

Dr. Lisa: Yep. “

Alyssa: Whoa. I had no idea that I was holding onto this memory from my grandma’s house where I was under the bed.”

Like, it’s so interesting how it’s all interconnected, and we won’t know unless we- Explore Yeah If we explore our internal landscape-

Dr. Lisa: Right …

Alyssa: if you will.

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely. What, what is it connected to? What am I reacting to? What am I telling myself? How is that making me feel? And then the most powerful thing is to turn that awareness into, how do I calm myself down so that I c- can act like the person that I want to be in this moment instead of reactive?

Um, Alyssa, this is such powerful stuff. And, you know, okay, so I’m just sitting here thinking right now. I mean, just to share, other people have probably said this to you, but, like, there, there are schools of thought related to formal practices in psychology that exist for these purposes, and they- Mm-hmm

they do work well. This is just a curiosity question and not any, any type of criticism, but I’m really wondering. You took it upon yourself to do all of this work through a very DIY approach. Was there something that prevented you from getting involved in more formal therapy or coaching- Right … versus this quest to go figure this all out on your own?

I, I’m just, I wanna know.

Alyssa: I think it comes back to sovereignty.

Dr. Lisa: Hmm.

Alyssa: I think it comes back to, um- You know, I respect and honor all of the, the authors whose books I’ve read and practices that I’ve learned. Mm-hmm. And yes, I very much have like hodgepodged, really resonated most with me and, and elicited a breakthrough for me together.

Like, I’m not the creator of any of this, right? These are all things that have been done for, for centuries, you know, in some cases. And I would be lying if I didn’t say there were parts of me that thought maybe I should go get my master’s in psychology. I have my master’s in early childhood education- Mm-hmm

uh, which is where I’ve learned a lot of attachment theory and just development in the first six years of life specifically, um, which I think im- im- impacts, maybe, I don’t know if that’s the right word, but it influences the way that I teach and the way that I hold space for people, I think. I don’t think I know, but I know it influences it.

But for me, there’s this level of channeling, if you will, that I feel like happens because I don’t have so much noise around right or wrong ways to do things. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: And I think that helps me actually- Yeah … less than it hinders me, especially ’cause I have a tendency to be like right or wrong and, and then I wanna do it by the book, whereas like- Mm-hmm

this is just something that is authentic to me, and I don’t know, it just, it f- it’s sovereign. It’s like it’s sovereign. Mm-hmm. It’s to me. Like no one’s, I don’t have all these like ears or eyes being like, “That’s the right way to do it,” or, “That’s the wrong way to do it.”

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Alyssa: I think I did have a lot of fears of what are psychologists going to think about what I’m doing, people who have been trained for years, uh, years and years- Mm-hmm

to do this work, and, uh, the exile or the judgment that I would get from those types of, uh, practitioners. And it’s wild that the majority of people who are directed to my membership are coming from therapy settings, that their- Yeah … therapists have sent them to my community to get support outside of therapy, and it’s like the coolest thing because we all long to belong.

And I had to be okay with potentially not belonging to then see just how much I do belong in this space. Despite my traditional, I guess, education- Mm-hmm … in this, in this space, but-

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sha- no, that, that makes so much sense, and I, I, I get it that at the core of this, there needed to be this, um, self-direction, the sovereignty- Mm-hmm

right? Like, being able to listen to and understand yourself. And you’re right. I mean, if you get kinda put into a chute that is then being influenced by someone else’s, like, here’s, here’s what to do, here’s the next step in some ways, that you’re worried that you could get disconnected from that and that it would, your own self-knowledge if you tend to want to do the right thing.

And I’ve, I’ve seen, so I’m at, like, a clinical supervisor of other therapists, right? Yeah. And so this desire to comply with the, the program, so to speak- Mm-hmm … interferes with somebody’s attunement To what is actually going on with the specific individual in terms of how they’re feeling or what, you know, the, the truth about this situation that may not conform perfectly to whatever this is supposed- Mm-hmm

to be. And I think that that’s very powerful. But I also just wanna highlight something, is that, you know, v- one of the things that I talk about often on this show is the fact that, so yeah, I have the traditional background as a psychologist and an, an MFT, and I think for me, the motivation isn’t so much like what is the right way necessarily.

I think I’m oriented a little bit differently, but I’ve really wanted to learn. Like- Yeah … that, that curiosity piece is, is really strong in me as I wanted to learn all the things and, not that I’ve learned all the things, but that just a- the knowledge was important to me. However, in clinical practice, what I started bumping up against pretty routinely is what you’re telling me is, is maybe true for the therapists of your clients.

Dr. Lisa: Mm-hmm. Which is that traditional therapy is really not enough to move the needle and turn that insight and awareness into the action-oriented practices that you’re describing. That comes much- Mm-hmm … more from a coaching model. And so now- Mm … my second act in my career, honestly, is teaching therapists coaching competencies that make these ideas concrete practices.

And time and time again, I have also witnessed the power of a group- Yeah … to support this transformation in a way that is really not possible if you’re in a individual relationship with a one-on-one practitioner who can see you 45 minutes every other week. Like, the, the group- Yeah … I’ve been blown away by like, oh, wow, this is fast and- Mm-hmm

powerful. And, and I think some people devalue the, the group experience in a way that is, uh, regrettable from my point of view- Mm … ’cause… Sorry, I, I just wanted to share like my own experiences- No. Validate what you’re saying, especially- Thank you … the community element of it. There’s a whole social learning piece that happens that’s really- Yeah

really powerful.

Alyssa: It’s so true. I mean, both are extremely valuable and- Mm-hmm … completely different-

Dr. Lisa: Completely

Alyssa: different … ways, right? It’s like you can’t compare apples to oranges. It- They, they do completely different things. Mm-hmm. Right? They offer something 100% different. I think for therapists who recommend my community, it’s because, one, I share vulnerably, so it allows people to see themselves in my- Yeah

stories and my shares, which acts as this access point, if you will, for them to explore that within themselves. “Oh, I resonate with what she’s sharing. Oh, maybe there’s room for me to grow here. Oh, what is that?” And with codependency patterns specifically, what ends up happening when you become aware of the ways that you participated in dysfunction is the shame and the guilt comes in.

And so what I often say in our community is like why I believe it’s so impactful and why I created this group- Mm-hmm … was because that shame and guilt almost derailed me. It’s a very dark place, and I, I said, I promised myself, when I’m on the other side of this, I am going to create a space for people to not be alone in this dark place, because it can get so overwhelming with the shame.

Like, not just the guilt- Mm-hmm … it’s the shame. Yeah. “I am bad. I’ve done this to myself and to people who I love.” And what happens is that people share in this group what they’re experiencing, and then other members say, like, “I see you. I did this, too.” They have compassion for that person who has that pattern or behavior that they’re being vulnerable and sharing about, and that compassion for them then extends to themselves.

Dr. Lisa: Oh, yeah.

Alyssa: Because if I can love someone who does the very thing that I do, then I can love myself. Like, it’s a very unconscious thing- That’s so good … that I believe happens, but if I can see you and your experience and not judge you on it, but love you through it, then I start loving myself through it. I start having compassion and grace for myself, and that is the only way I think we heal codependency, is if we can replace judgment with compassion.

Yes. And sometimes

Dr. Lisa: that takes mirrors.

Alyssa: Oh, yeah. And if you’re in a

Dr. Lisa: community, you’ve got a bunch of them. Oh.

Alyssa: Yeah.

Dr. Lisa: Lisa, that’s so beautiful. That, that is the experiential power of a group. If, if I do something and I feel like the worst person in the universe, but in a group I can witness somebody else’s humanity and feel so much compassion for them, and then have this moment where I’m like, “Oh, wait.

They’re like me. I can now have compassion for myself.” That’s literally the way that it works, and you’re tapping into this. And-

Alyssa: Right …

Dr. Lisa: and also that you have so much respect for…

Alyssa: What’s coming up for you right now? It’s just, like, it’s so emo- I just get emotional because, one, because it’s so beautiful to witness it, you know, to witness it in people that- Mm

live across time. You know? Like, people in California are, are holding space for people in the UK all in one breath. And, and just to see how universal this experience is and, you know, I always held this vision. It’s just wild that it’s, it’s happened, and that it’s come to fruition in this way- Mm … and that we have so many members, and that it is supporting people.

And I just, I think I’m emotional because I feel gratitude and, um, yeah, I just feel gratitude for The vulnerability of, of people and the willingness to share, I guess.

Dr. Lisa: No. And support each other along the way. Support

Alyssa: each other.

Dr. Lisa: Like- Yeah … yeah.

Alyssa: Yeah. In a world where we’ve been, like, conditioned to compete and, and judge ourselves and, and pin ourselves against others, you know, it’s, it’s just, like, such an act of rebellion, and I’m, have a big heart around it because it can cause so much separation if we, if we let it.

Dr. Lisa: Right. And, and to your point, too, that, uh, that there are people struggling in very intensely dark spaces can, can be lost without the kind of light and love that you’re providing. So thank you, Alyssa. You’re doing a beautiful job. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming here today and for sharing your story with us, and, um, is there anything else you wanna say at the end here?

Alyssa: Uh, I’m just super appreciative that, uh, that you are allowing the space for this conversation to be had because I think it’s, it’s sticky for some people, and they’re like, “Oh, do we really wanna talk about this?” Uh, so I, I always really feel like it’s a privilege to, whenever I get to speak about this and, and share it in a way that hopefully acts as, yeah, an access point for people to get curious for themselves.

So thank you so much and thanks everyone who’s listened. I appreciate you witnessing me and my share. I appreciate you wit- witnessing me and my mess. Your mess. And glory in a lot of ways.

Dr. Lisa: Glory. All glory. All glory. It’s real, you know?

Alyssa: It’s real, yeah.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. So, so Alyssa- Thank you … if, if people are listening to this are like, “I want to get involved.

That group, that needs to be my group,” where, where do they go?

Alyssa: Yeah. So definitely check out Codependency Alchemy, the podcast, and you can also tap into our community over on Substack. It’s the same name, Codependency Alchemy. There are options to become a free or paid member. So many resources if you even just subscribe as a free member that I post every month and, uh, even more intimate community when you become a paid subscriber.

My, my life’s work is to make this work accessible. It is, I believe it’s people’s birthright to have access to this, so I mean, you can subscribe for a whole year for less than $100 to get support for an entire year. So it really is my mission, and if any of that is an obstacle, please always reach out to me.

I’m always happy to meet people where they’re at and get them access to the space.

Dr. Lisa: Amazing. Well, thank you so much, Alyssa. Not, not just for- Thank you, Lisa … the time today, but, but for everything that you do. Thank you so much.