Control Issues in Relationships: Where They Really Come From

Seth: If I’ve learned from my childhood to yell when things aren’t going my way, well then that’s what I’ve learned and that’s what I do.

Dr. Lisa: Is someone’s control issues creating friction, conflict, or unhappiness in your relationship?

Seth: Yelling, cussing, not talking to your partner for hours or days at a time, becoming extremely defensive and justifying behaviors.

Dr. Lisa: Maybe your control issues, just saying. You know, this is a really common problem. People struggling over power, control, whose way is the right way. It’s a very common problem that we frequently see in couples counseling, and the good news is that there is a way through it.

Seth: It’s to control a level of anxiety or something deeper inside of you. So I would say most behaviors that clients come to therapists for are often maladaptive control techniques.

Dr. Lisa: By the end of today’s episode of Love, Happiness, and Success, you’re gonna have new visibility into the deeper patterns that lead to air quote “control issues,” what it really means, by the way, and how to understand this with compassion and courage, and importantly, how to make positive changes in the way you think, the way you feel, and the way you behave with each other so that you can get back on the same page and make sure that there’s space for both of you in your healthy partnership.

Dr. Lisa: If this is your first time tuning in, hello, I’m so glad you’re here. I’m your host, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. My background: I’m a psychologist, I am a licensed marriage and family therapist, and I’m also a board-certified coach. I’m here every week on Love, Happiness, and Success to talk about you, your growth, your desire for a nice life, a beautiful relationship, a satisfying career. And everything we talk about is in service of that, including today’s episode.

Dr. Lisa: I could not be more excited about today, because we’re bringing in a real expert on this topic, my friend and colleague, Seth Bender. He, like me, is a licensed marriage and family therapist who also practices evidence-based coaching strategies to not just treat and heal, but give you real world actionable things you can do to translate the things you’re talking about in the work into actual changes in your relationship. Changes that stick. Seth and I have worked together for a long time through Growing Self Counseling and Coaching, and he’s such a valued member of our network here. So thank you for being here.

Seth: Thank you for having me, Lisa.

Dr. Lisa: We were in a conversation the other day and I was like, Seth, you have to come on the podcast to talk about this, because you brought up such an astute point about how often control can be this thing that comes up in relationships that is often a product of our own patterns and ways of being and life experiences, but how disruptive it can be to the kinds of healthy connections we all want. So take us into this. What have you noticed in your work, or in yourself, even, if it’s okay to ask?

Seth: Sure. In my work as a therapist, and translating that to myself as well, with the modalities I tend to use with couples therapy, we see negative behaviors, whatever those may be, like shutting down or yelling or being argumentative, getting defensive, whatever it may be. Those are really about control rather than connection. And what’s interesting about that, though, is that control is something everybody inherently needs to feel.

Dr. Lisa: Agency. To influence outcomes.

Seth: To influence outcomes, absolutely. And we see it most often as negative behaviors, which is what we’ll be getting into today more of than the others.

Seth: But for positive behaviors, control is often the subconscious goal. So to give you an example of that: studying for a test, for example, is a positive behavior. I don’t think anyone would argue otherwise. But you’re trying to influence an outcome by studying for that test. You’re trying to pass a test.

Dr. Lisa: If I study, then I will do well.

Seth: Exactly. And then if I do well, then I’ll get that promotion, or I’ll get that license, or I’ll get that whatever it might be.

Dr. Lisa: Get into graduate school someday.

Seth: Yes, exactly.

Dr. Lisa: Pay off my student loans.

Seth: Or if you have an infant and that baby is crying, when you’re soothing them, yes, you’re trying to build comfort and connection, but it’s also about control. You’re trying to help your baby feel better in the moment by comforting them, and there is a control element to that, even though it’s a very positive, loving, and connecting behavior. So it’s always there in some way.

Seth: So what I’ve been kind of seeing is, okay, where do we learn about that? Where do we learn about control, and where do we learn about how it works and how it doesn’t work? And we do learn about it in negative ways, through various examples and reasons and whatnot. But it’s always in the backdrop. So the key is, okay, is my controlling behavior affecting things negatively?

Dr. Lisa: Well, and so we’re absolutely gonna talk about that, because I think we can all consider examples. But I just wanna pause here and restate this really important point that you’re making, Seth.

Dr. Lisa: Because I feel like in our culture, you know, to have control or to be controlling, there are so many negative connotations associated with that. And what you’re saying is that at the heart, a desire to influence outcomes, to have agency in your own life, I mean, really the psychological term for it, that locus of control. If I do this, then that will happen. It’s such a not just normal but really healthy, I would say necessary thing. Because without that trust that you can do something to influence outcomes, that’s a whole other set of problems, right? Learned helplessness, victimization, feeling like you don’t have any agency. So to have some control, that belief in that, is good.

Seth: Yes. And it’s about survival sometimes. And that’s where it all stemmed from, from an anthropological perspective, which is: thousands of years ago the world was a very dangerous place and we had to be very hypervigilant about perceived dangers. And doing that, and adapting to that, helped the human race survive, right? So on one hand, it’s deeply ingrained in all people, both men and women. We’re just trying to stay safe. And we’re trying to stay alive, for lack of a better way of saying it.

Seth: And what can happen, though, is when we start, for whatever reason, perceiving dangers that aren’t quite what we might think they are, or if we’ve learned maladaptive ways of trying to ask for or assert that control, that’s when we run into trouble. That can affect relationships, that can affect lives, and that can affect our overall happiness and feeling of safety within this world, because it can backfire. And it often does, and that’s what we see in our work.

Dr. Lisa: Okay. Well, let’s crack into this. And also, thank you too for reminding us all that even when control gets intense, it’s coming for a reason. There is fear, there’s vigilance, there’s a desire for self-protection, or we’re trying to reduce anxiety through control. That’s very well known, and I appreciate you for just bringing the heart back into it. Because the other thing is, you know, controlling people can also, that that is a bad person, or that’s like a character flaw. And thank you for the reminder that there’s actually a lot of compassion when control is happening that we should all tap into. So thank you.

Dr. Lisa: And it can get kinda ugly. I mean, at its extreme versions it can get very ugly.

Seth: Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa: So what are some of the things that you’ve seen when control is creating problems?

Seth: You can look at any maladaptive behavior. Whether we look at Gottman’s Four Horsemen, criticism, defensiveness, stonewalling, and contempt, those are the main categories there. But any behavior that is actually harming the situation, or reducing trust in you, or creating a situation where your relationship is now changed in a negative way because of what has happened.

Seth: And this could be anything you can think of. Yelling, cussing, not talking to your partner for hours or days at a time. Becoming extremely defensive and justifying behaviors. Because oftentimes when that’s occurring, it’s to control a level of anxiety or something deeper inside of you, right? So I would say most behaviors that clients come to therapists for are often maladaptive control techniques.

Seth: So if I’ve learned from my childhood to yell when things aren’t going my way, well, then that’s what I’ve learned and that’s what I do. It feels natural because that’s what I learned, even though I probably didn’t like it when I was a kid. But then we do it, and it creates a situation where your partner feels less safe because of what you’re trying to do to control the situation.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. So this is an interesting reframe, because I’m hearing the systemic thing here, Seth, that as a marriage and family therapist I know you’re so well-versed in. But I think it can be tempting to think of something like yelling as a spontaneous reaction to a situation. You feel angry, therefore you yell. But what you’re saying is that a lot of the relational patterns people engage in are actually ways to try to control the situation, get what they want, influence other people. Like yelling, or even the silent treatment. “I will punish you with my silence if you don’t do what I want.”

Seth: And sometimes that’s a conscious decision, you know. And sometimes it’s a very subconscious decision, and some clients don’t realize that it’s happening. And neither way is ideal, but in my experience with clients, it’s most often not intentional. Sometimes it is, and then we’re having different conversations. But it’s usually not intentional. It’s usually not for the purpose of harming your partner. It’s usually for the purpose of: my body, my mind’s feeling something, and I need to do something to soothe that. And what soothes that is to feel a sense of control over the situation.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well, and that’s another good takeaway. You mentioned, and I know that we’ll go deeper into this, but when there are a lot of controlling behaviors that are present, it really can damage the trust in a relationship, damage people’s sense of emotional safety with each other, when they feel like they’re being controlled by their partner in a way that doesn’t feel good to them or healthy.

Dr. Lisa: However, step one of changing any of this is getting visibility into it. And what you just said is most of the time people aren’t even aware that they’re doing it, and they’re not doing it on purpose. So take us into some signs that you might be on the more controlling end of the spectrum, not ’cause you want to be, but how do we get visibility into that?

Seth: There’s quite a few ways. I would say most often what you would get it from is from other people’s feedback, from other people telling you, “Hey.” And they may not even use the words, “Hey, you are being controlling.” But if people are often telling you, “Hey, the things you say and the way you’re reacting is making me uncomfortable, making me feel unsafe,” then that external validation piece right there, of someone telling you, “Hey, that really, really hurt me,” or, “That really scared me,” or whatever it might be, you would often get it from the person who is the recipient of that behavior. Now, not always, because sometimes people don’t express that when it happens.

Dr. Lisa: Right.

Seth: But which is also a form of control, but that’s neither here nor there.

Dr. Lisa: It’s everywhere.

Seth: Yeah. But oftentimes your partner will let you know, “Hey, when we argue, I feel like you’re a wall. I feel like I can’t talk to you. I’m trying to tell you something that’s important to me, and you don’t even respond to me.” Well, if people are telling you things like that, and they’re telling you consistently, well, then that’s something to consider. And that’s something to hear.

Dr. Lisa: Well, can I just make like one point really quick? Because I feel like this is so important, Seth, and this can be so hard to tease apart. Because as you’re saying this, you’re saying it is so incredibly important to accept feedback from other people. And when you’re getting signals from people that you’re in relationships with that they are not having a good time, the way you are reacting, or what you’re doing, is feeling problematic to them, we have to take that seriously.

Dr. Lisa: And at the same time, I think that there’s so much in our culture, and sometimes justified, that you’re being invalidated. Or if your partner is saying, you know, “You’re overreacting, I don’t like it when you respond to me that way,” are we interpreting that as they’re gaslighting us, they’re minimizing us, they’re not hearing what I’m trying to say? And so then there almost becomes this like power struggle again around, do I need to accept influence from them and listen to them saying, “I don’t like this,” but you know what? Here’s what’s really upsetting me right now, and I feel like they’re not hearing me.

Dr. Lisa: And this is where it just gets so darn hard to tease apart. In my experience professionally and also personally, I think it’s usually a both/and. Like, I have some things I probably need to let in, and also, I probably have some feelings and perspective that need to be heard as well.

Dr. Lisa: Would you say that that’s fair? Because I think that’s where it gets hard, which is we start fighting about who’s right.

Seth: Absolutely. And we have a saying in couples therapy: “You can be right, or you can be married,” right? Because oftentimes the feedback piece is coming as a trigger behavior itself. And so then if that awareness isn’t there, or if that’s triggering someone more, then you start playing emotional table tennis with your partner. It turns into, “This is my perspective.” “Yeah, but this is why I did that,” which is justification and defensiveness. So you hit it back to your partner, they hit it back to you, they hit it back, and eventually someone’s gonna hit the ball really hard.

Dr. Lisa: Too hard.

Seth: Yeah, exactly. And so oftentimes the feedback is not coming in a way that feels safe to hear either. So it is the and/but piece, because there’s so much going on with it other than just that particular conversation.

Dr. Lisa: Well, and honestly, what you’re talking about, I think, is what we as relationship coaches, MFTs who are relationship coaches, that’s oftentimes the very first thing that we need to do, is help people slow down enough and just start understanding each other, and being able to let in how the other person is actually feeling, even when they disagree with it.

Dr. Lisa: And that can be challenging even for us, right? And I just wanna say this out loud to anybody listening: if you can relate to what Seth and I are talking about, trying to get through that on your own can be real hard, especially if it’s in this entrenched cycle where it’s been happening a long time and trust has been broken. And even in facilitated situations, with somebody like me or Seth sitting in the room, it can still be hard. But that is step number one. And to have somebody like Seth being like, “Stop. What did you just hear her say? What would it mean for you if that was actually true? That that’s literally how she’s feeling right now.” That can create a connection with it that can change things experientially.

Dr. Lisa: And sorry, not to keep going on, but I have to say one more thing, Seth. I think that that’s one of the things that concerns me about what I see happening right now. In the past it was social media, I think now it’s like AI, right? There’s a lot of advice being given. And what you’re doing, it has nothing to do with information. It’s not advice, it’s experiential. You are constructing new experiences for people where they are like, “Oh.” And that’s powerful stuff, so I just wanted to acknowledge that.

Seth: Thank you. And to piggyback off of that: if you haven’t learned about emotional communication, and if that wasn’t modeled for you when you were young, that type of slowing down, which I agree is the first step, and letting the other person’s perspective in, and the listening piece, and the self-control piece, becomes very, very difficult. And we see that a lot. And a lot of people that I’ve worked with just haven’t known that there’s other ways to do it.

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely. And so what you’re talking about right now, Seth, are emotional intelligence competencies. How do I feel? How do I manage this in a healthy and effective way? How does the other person feel? And then how do I respond to that in a constructive way? Four different things. Who learns that? I didn’t learn that. And so a lot of times you get people in couples counseling or relationship coaching, and that’s where we have to actually start. Seth, there’s so much here. And so what we’re talking about are all of the things that contribute to air quote “control issues” in relationships.

Dr. Lisa: When there are control issues present in a relationship, on one side or the other, sometimes both, how we can see this, how we can understand it, but most importantly, how we can reduce it so that there’s more emotional safety and connection for both people. So we were going more deeply under the hood to explore what causes control issues, right? Anxiety, feeling threatened, a desire to influence outcomes, and also talking about how not knowing how else to communicate sometimes can really contribute to this. And some of the core competencies, even of things like emotional intelligence, can be a big part of this. But I’d love to hear more about what you’ve seen control look like in relationships and some of the problems that it causes, just so that we can increase visibility. And from there, we’ll start to talk about maybe what to do instead.

Seth: And you’ll see it most often in differences of opinion, of whatever topic it might be. Like, what’s the best way to parent my child? Or what do we do in this situation when this appliance is broken? Do we fix it, do we get a new one?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Seth: And I don’t say that flippantly, though, because differences of opinion and conflict happen every day. Every day, even if it’s small, you know. So it usually stems from when you and your partner aren’t agreeing about something, you’re not in agreement. That’s when we see it most, when it comes to a relational piece where we’re trying to subconsciously control our environment to get our version of right to be the action piece. That’s where I see that most.

Dr. Lisa: All right. So, and I mean, I think we can all relate to this. My goodness. We have different opinions about the right answer or the right way to handle a situation, or where the kids should go to school or whatever. Parenting styles. So of course we all have different opinions, but you’re saying that it starts to turn into problematic control when you begin perhaps campaigning for your way to be the way we do things.

Dr. Lisa: And so help us figure out where that line is between advocating for your preferences, or, “No, really, here’s what I think might be a better idea, here’s why,” in a constructive way, right? Like exchanging information, versus an unhealthy desire to influence a situation that’s maybe not making space for the needs, rights, and feelings of your partner.

Seth: I think the line is how much control you have over yourself in the moment. Where if you, you know, some people go offline when they’re disagreed with, or when they’re pushed too hard, or whatever terminology you wanna use. So I think the key is, okay, so consciously what am I trying to do here? Am I trying to express how I feel and what I need and try to meet in the middle? Or am I trying to dominate a situation? And usually when you’re trying to dominate and just have your way be the way, you’re usually triggered. And there’s ways to kind of determine, I mean, I’m a big fan of using somatic symptoms to determine when you’re triggered, because…

Dr. Lisa: Somatic what?

Seth: Symptoms.

Seth: Symptoms of where, you know, basically I call them rattlesnake rattles. If someone’s feeling unsafe, then they rattle. That’s what rattlesnakes do when they’re feeling unsafe, they rattle their tails. While some people, when they’re feeling unsafe, their neck gets stiff. Or sometimes when people feel unsafe, they feel it in their stomach, or they get sweaty palms, or they may not be aware of it at all. But the question is, what is your mind and body doing in that moment?

Seth: And so if it goes from “I am controlling how I react, and I’m trying to handle this in a way that works for both of us” to self-interest, which is…

Dr. Lisa: Because you’re feeling threatened. Exactly. That rattlesnake rattle. “I am feeling threatened right now.”

Seth: Exactly. Subconsciously. Or maybe even consciously, in certain situations. But it’s like, hey, there’s something unsafe about this interaction, and there’s something unsafe about my point of view being challenged like this. And then your body will respond to that, because that’s attached to your emotional body too. And before you know it, you’re in a trigger behavior that you may not even know that you’re doing.

Dr. Lisa: Interesting.

Seth: So I think there’s ways to become more aware of that threshold, and it’s different for every person. It’s never a one-size-fits-all, because we all have different somatic symptoms, period. But I think the self-awareness piece helps you determine what it is. And as a therapist, that’s what we do. We try to help you determine where that locus is, and when it gets crossed.

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely. And I’m thinking too, certainly in your work as a therapist, one of your subspecialties is actually trauma treatment. I mean, you do a lot of EMDR, which is when someone has had a capital T trauma, how do we metabolize all that so that people are less triggered, which is so valuable. But I know a lot of times in your work you’re also doing relationship coaching, which is helping people understand their patterns, their triggers, their subconscious, like, why do I do that? And what do I need to do differently in order to get a better result?

Dr. Lisa: And so to your point, first we need to understand where this is coming from. Because if you are getting flooded and feeling threatened in relatively neutral situations because of an unresolved trauma history, that actually requires treatment in order to be resolved, so that you can then have enough control over yourself in order to do things differently. Versus someone who, maybe their family didn’t model particularly effective communication, or they have some associations with things where there’s not, like, a trauma, in which case a lot of times we can just help. “Do you notice what’s happening right here?” And then practice, honestly, doing things differently so that they get the results they want. So thank you for explaining some of that.

Seth: Sure. And you mentioned the trauma piece, which is so important, because with significant trauma, it gets trapped in the brain and affects how we perceive things. And that’s a big part of the control piece: if we perceive danger, we’re going to try to control, most likely in a negative way. Or in a way that’s the easiest way to get out of that situation, which is often negative.

Seth: And so, yeah, it often can come from trauma that’s been unresolved. Or it can come from your attachment history with your family growing up, how they handled conflict, how you went about emotions and what you internalized and learned from that. It can happen a lot just from general socialization with friends and partners, and how those experiences mold how you handle your own stuff. Because you’re always having someone else’s stuff thrown at you, which inflames your own, and then what do you do with that? So it comes from a very complex kind of way of doing it, but it’s usually involving some sort of trauma or some sort of attachment pain that’s been internalized, that’s deep in you, that gets triggered.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. So interesting. And I just love this whole conversation around such a compassionate point of view, around that it makes sense, but there’s this threat that has been activated, and what it looks like though is then people trying to really fight for dominance in a way that is problematic. It is not consensual, it is not taking the partner’s feelings into account, and it creates damage to the trust in the relationship. But that’s what it really is, is a needing to be in charge of whatever happens next.

Dr. Lisa: In our other conversations, I’ve actually heard you talk about some of your observations that men can be more vulnerable to this process, although I have met my fair share of controlling women. I’m just gonna say that out loud.

Seth: As have I.

Dr. Lisa: But also, we cannot end this podcast without some of your guidance and recommendations around what people can start to do differently if they notice these patterns happening in their relationship, whether or not they’re the ones who are fighting for dominance, or if they’re experiencing this from their partner in a way that doesn’t feel good. And also, are there different remedies if there’s sort of gender variables at play, for people in opposite sex relationships?

Seth: There’s lots of ways to skin a cat. And depending on the therapist, you’ll get different ideas.

Dr. Lisa: Or a coach.

Seth: Or a coach, yes.

Dr. Lisa: If you work with me, it’s gonna be a coach.

Seth: That’s right. How I usually work it with a client or a client couple that’s needing guidance with this is, first I get information about the background, about their attachment histories and things like that, and learn more about that.

Dr. Lisa: Why does this make sense?

Seth: Exactly. And I try to map out their interaction with the EFT cycle, the emotionally focused therapy cycle, to learn more about the layers of this. Okay, the behavior is really just the top level. You’re also looking at the belief system that’s creating the behavior, the emotions that are fueling the belief system, and then the need that’s not being met at that moment, which usually comes from your childhood, from your parents. And so first we get information about that, and that in itself is really illuminating for a lot of clients, ’cause they’ve never really thought about it that way. They’ve never seen it mapped out like that, and they’re like, “Oh, I didn’t know that was happening with my partner. I didn’t know that was happening with me. But now I know.” So that’s the kind of information that often’s transformative.

Dr. Lisa: Who has? Nobody has attached that in that way. And can I also just say, we have to say this out loud, Seth, for the benefit of our listeners: also in this assessment process, people like you and me, we’re also listening for, you know, over the threshold of even a little bit okay power and control issues, that might be consistent with domestic violence or intimate partner violence, because power and control is really at the heart of that. But in a capital A abusive relationship, control is being expressed through violence, coercion. I mean, there’s all kinds of things.

Dr. Lisa: And it is not okay to do couples counseling or relationship coaching in the context of domestic violence or abuse. It is not safe. And I just wanna say this out loud because, Seth, as I know you well know, many people when they do reach out for help for their relationship, 5% of therapists are actually licensed marriage and family therapists, meaning that they have specialized training in couples and family therapy specifically. Most mental health professionals don’t, and they don’t know enough to know that you’re not supposed to do that. So there are real risks for coming into even a therapist’s office with an abusive partner and trying to have open conversations around what’s going on, because there can be very severe consequences on the other side of that.

Dr. Lisa: So I just say that out loud for our friends with us so that they can make informed choices and know what to do. And if you are in a very serious power and control situation where people are getting hurt, what you should do instead is access a free resource called thehotline.org, all one word, thehotline.org. You can get immediate access by phone, by text, to trained domestic violence counselors who can learn more about your situation, help you make a safety plan, get you access to the right kind of help in your community, sometimes even get out of the house. So thank you for giving me space to share that resource.

Seth: Of course. And thank you for reminding everyone of that, because it’s crucially important.

Dr. Lisa: And that’s a different thing. That we’re talking about garden variety control issues in relationships.

Seth: Right. So once we map it out, my goal is to shift the focus of the client from controlling other people or the environment to controlling themselves. So not controlling my partner or my friend or whatever. I need to control me. Because that’s the only thing you truly have control over 100% of the time, is yourself.

Seth: So I generally start with that awareness piece with the somatic symptoms, right, like which we mentioned before, and working on practicable techniques to help people manage the beliefs and thoughts that are leading to negative behaviors. Cognitive behavioral therapy techniques that are practical that way. I do a lot of grounding. I do a lot of DBT work as well to help calm the nervous system, because when people are triggered, their nervous system and their limbic system is just completely offline.

Dr. Lisa: Developing basic skills to calm yourself down so that you can…

Seth: Exactly. And we practice these in sessions. There’s literally thousands of them. I have ones that I prefer, and then if deeper ones are needed, I have those too via my EMDR work. So the first step is, hey, realizing I’m starting to lose control here. I can feel my neck tightening up. I can feel this desire to start doing things and saying things that may not be healthy here, right? So I need to do something about that first. And also being able to communicate that with your partner in the moment. I love timeouts and code words, ’cause those are helpful with that too. But basically letting it be known, “Hey, I know I’m losing control right now. Let me take care of me so I can continue this conversation.”

Dr. Lisa: And just to ask, would you ever advise a partner on the other side of this equation, who’s noticing, activated, starting to go into like controlling stuff, is it ever helpful to say, “It looks like you’re having a big reaction to what’s happening right now. I’m wondering if you’re feeling threatened by what’s happening right now”? Or do you feel like that’s not gonna end well?

Seth: It depends. In certain situations, I wouldn’t recommend that. If it feels like it’s gone from zero to 100, that can be ineffective and it can actually inflame things. If it doesn’t feel that scary or dangerous, then that could work. I think in these situations, I think code words work better than full sentences. A, because they’re easier to say when you’re upset. But also, it just conveys, “Hey, we have an agreement. Every time we say this word, we stop talking and we take care of ourselves.” So you don’t necessarily have to get into the context of, “I notice this.”

Dr. Lisa: Mm-hmm.

Seth: And maybe that’s what you do after you both calm down and come back.

Dr. Lisa: Good point. ‘Cause people are flooded. But the assumption here is that there would have been conversations where you’re both saying, “This is a problem when we go here, and so we have a safe word, and when this happens, we’re all gonna back off.”

Seth: Exactly. And sometimes we give those instructions and model that, and then it happens and it doesn’t work, you know? So then there’s other conversations to have. But I think the answer to that question is it just depends on the situation and the person, ’cause some people are open to that feedback in the moment, and some people just aren’t. And so I think that’s where the communication piece really comes into play. Like, okay, partner, what would work for you if I notice this? What can I say to you that will help? Or what can I do that will help when I notice this? ‘Cause sometimes it’s not even something you say. Some people just wanna be held or hugged in that situation, and that’s just as effective for some people. So I think there’s a lot of discovery with that. Like, okay, I know this is what I would respond to well, but I don’t wanna make the assumption that’s what my partner would, because then that’s where we’d run into more trouble.

Dr. Lisa: There’s also just so much compassion in all of this stuff, because it’s really like, when people are behaving in unpleasant ways, that we are reinterpreting this as a sign that they are flooded, they’re anxious, they’re threatened. And that’s just such a more compassionate way of looking at the same situation, as opposed to, “How dare you? I’m gonna fight back,” and all the things that go along with that.

Seth: Absolutely. And then once people are calm or calmer, and they’re back online, and they can actually try to have a conversation again, I give a lot of communication work. A lot of guided communication work, to make the conversations feel safer. I use something called ACT communication, which is something I learned on my internship. And I think it’s very effective. Very similar to Soft Startup, but it’s not quite the same thing.

Dr. Lisa: What is it?

Seth: The key here, what you’re doing is you’re trying to communicate in a way that will foster understanding and attachment rather than control. And the way you do it is you express the emotion you’re feeling in the moment without blame. Giving a little context about that, why that happens, why that matters.

Dr. Lisa: I’m feeling frustrated.

Seth: “I’m feeling frustrated when blankety blank happens, and there’s reasons for this, and I wanna let you know what they are.” So you’re opening the door a little bit with this communication and saying, “Okay, this is how I’m feeling.” And when you own the emotion, that’s so much more effective, because your partner doesn’t feel blamed or attacked for the emotion.

Dr. Lisa: It’s not “you are frustrating.” I am feeling frustrated.

Seth: Yeah. And I say avoid the word “you” the best you can, because it’s finger-pointing. It’s like, “You do this and then I do this, and I don’t wanna do that.” So express the emotion, express the context, and then express what you need in that moment to feel safer. And you say it as calmly as you can. And the way you know that your partner heard that is that they repeat it back to you. And so that way you can hear what they heard and what they didn’t hear. And if they didn’t hear something important, you’re like, “Okay, no, you got most of that, but there’s one piece I want you to hear again, that I need you to hear again.” So you say that piece and you make sure it’s understood. So it really gets to the heart of the issue. If you look at the EFT cycle, you’re getting down to the emotional and needs part rather than the behavior part. Because if you argue behaviors, you’ll never get anywhere.

Dr. Lisa: No. And let me just restate that for all of our friends here listening to us. So what Seth is talking about is, “This is how I feel. This is the context around why I feel the way that I feel, and here is what I need from you emotionally.” And it is not, “So that’s why I need you to do what I want,” because that is just a reinforcement of this controlling behavior.

Seth: That’s control.

Dr. Lisa: Exactly. And so this is, “Can I please have a hug?” kinda territory.

Seth: Yeah. What you’re doing with this method is you’re making yourself, like, “Hey, I really need this from you right now.”

Dr. Lisa: Yes. “I am feeling threatened. I need this from you. I’m feeling activated, anxious, and I just need to know that you still care about me, even if we run your plan instead of mine.”

Seth: But also the thing to remember is that a trigger behavior is a symptom of that need not being met in that moment. So it’s like, “Hey, you haven’t talked to me in eight hours.” Okay? Well, if that’s a trigger behavior, the need that hasn’t been met leads to trigger behavior. So if you express the need and get that met, and if you express it in a safe way and it’s heard in a safe way, and you suddenly get that need met, that trigger behavior theoretically would lessen.

Dr. Lisa: Okay. And I know we’re up on time, Seth, but let me ask you one more thing, ’cause I think this is also really important. With what you were just talking about, “This is how I feel, this is why, and so this is what I need from you,” what I’ve also seen are people that can sometimes have a very, like, anxious attachment style, who feel their default is that they’re worried, they need a lot of confirmation and approval and reinforcement on things. And so, “I am feeling really upset right now because I texted you eight hours ago and you didn’t text me back, and so what I need you to do is text me back,” or whatever the thing is. Because I need you to respond to me.

Dr. Lisa: But then the other thing too, and I’d love to hear your thoughts about this: many times people who are really anxious, particularly anxious attachment, they try to soothe themselves by getting other people to meet their needs and show up in a way that makes them feel better. And of course, I mean, in a healthy relationship we need to have some of that. But I’d love to hear your thoughts about where we draw those lines related to, okay, I am feeling anxious because of my stuff, and I know that my partner is at work in a full day of back-to-back meetings for 12 hours and actually can’t text me back in the exact moment when I want them to. So how do I manage myself, or make space for the fact that my partner’s been talking to people all day long and might not want to talk to anyone, including me, and maybe that’s okay because I’m not the only person with feelings in this relationship? Because that in itself can be a form of control, right? Meet my needs. How do you start to just make sense of that, figure out who belongs to what?

Seth: Well, I think the situation that you describe explains a very common thing, which is, “Hey, I didn’t text you back because I couldn’t.” And it’s construed as, “You didn’t text me back because you wouldn’t.”

Dr. Lisa: But is it okay to say, “I didn’t text you back ’cause I didn’t want to”? I didn’t feel like it.

Seth: It is, and if it’s causing your partner a lot of pain, I would say that’s dismissive. But at the same time, what you’re describing is a type of codependency.

Dr. Lisa: Emotional enmeshment. I need you to do something so I feel better.

Seth: Right. So oftentimes what we’ll all do in those situations is kind of fall back on the emotional regulation piece I mentioned earlier, with like the changing of the beliefs and calming yourself down. Also, trying to find some self-care activities that can help calm you in the moment. You know, things that fill your cup, like talking to a friend or going for a run, or making yourself a cup of tea, or splashing cold water on your face, or it could be something as simple as if you’re in your office, stretching for five minutes. So something to get your brain focused on something other than the perceived wrong, right?

Dr. Lisa: Right.

Seth: And that’s very common. It happens all the time. And going back to the trauma piece, if someone has abandonment trauma in their past, that can be triggered very easily, and through no fault of anyone. It just can happen. And in those situations it can be really difficult for both the person being triggered trying to manage themselves, and the person trying to attune, because it can often come out of nowhere when people aren’t expecting it. And so sometimes in those situations we recommend individual therapy, or coaching, for someone who’s struggling with that piece a lot, because sometimes that’s the block to the control piece being flattened out a bit. Because if something’s being triggered and it’s no one’s fault, it’s just happening, and nothing seems to be working with that, then a different level of care may be needed for that client to help them get there.

Dr. Lisa: What a good point.

Seth: But this happens all the time. I see that very situation in couples a lot.

Dr. Lisa: And it’s so hard, right? Because there’s this balance between being responsive to a partner, but I’ve seen so many situations where this emotional enmeshment, I need you to be a certain way so that I feel a certain way. And maybe that’s it. If you need your partner to do X, Y, Z so that you can feel a certain way, you’re like outsourcing your emotional regulation skills to be dependent on what somebody else is doing or not doing. I think that’s something to look at. Because what can happen is that even if somebody really cares about you and wants to be there for you, if it’s all about you and helping you feel okay, that is disconnected from what they also might be needing, right? That’s where it can get really sticky.

Seth: Absolutely. And now, going back to the example you used, if someone’s in the office in meetings all day for five hours and they can’t get to their phone to respond to a text, well…

Dr. Lisa: Or needs to have some quiet time on the way home.

Seth: Or that. And I think a lot of times the person getting triggered with the abandonment trauma, in their head they know, “Hey, there’s a perfectly legitimate reason why they’re not texting me back,” but their body and their heart are telling them something different. And it can get overwhelming. That’s a very common piece with this, is oftentimes control is based off of a trauma response that needs to be more processed and healed.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Absolutely. And also expectations about the way things should be. The shoulds, that may not actually be helpful.

Dr. Lisa: So, Seth, this has been an incredible conversation. I knew it would be, and I’m also feeling like we’ve just scratched the surface here. There’s so much. And one of my big takeaways from this conversation is that this is complex. And also, one of these things that our listeners here, our friends who are with us, might also be sitting with, if anybody’s tuning in like, “Okay, three tips to be less controlling in your relationship,” or whatever. That’s actually not how this works. There are awarenesses, there are blind spots. There’s this experiential process of being able to understand yourself and your partner, and calm down, to even start to get a handle on how control manifests. And these are layers that occur over time, and I think can probably be challenging to crack into without a third party such as yourself shining a light on that, because we’re so entrenched in our own point of view that it’s very difficult to see. Would you agree with that? This is hard.

Seth: It’s very hard. And you said the word layers, which I really resonate with, ’cause I kind of see it like an onion. And there’s so many layers to an onion, and there’s so many layers to what control actually means to people, and what it symbolizes. It’s like, okay, if I’m not in control right now, what does it mean? Well, it probably means something bad might happen to me. And then you’re gonna respond to that.

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely. So it happens in layers, it occurs over time, and this is probably not the kind of thing you can drop in and learn a few strategies and all good. It’s probably at least measured in months, if not even longer, because this is really an internal transformation that happens on deep levels.

Seth: I mean, for the true growth that would lead to feeling more confident and, for lack of a better way of saying it, more in control over that piece for yourself, it very often takes deeper work than just, hey, here’s some tips. Not that these tips can’t be effective, but if there’s underlying stuff, and traumas and hurts that are leading to that, then those tips only go so far. Because the hurt, the trauma is still there. And it’s always gonna fuel that reaction.

Dr. Lisa: It is. Seth, so good. Well, thank you so much for spending this time today, and I know we’ve gone a little bit over, so I wanna be respectful of your time and let you go. But in the event that somebody hearing this is like, “Wow, I wanna do this with my partner,” and that Seth Bender knows what he’s talking about. And Seth, you’re so compassionate and so affirming.

Dr. Lisa: And can I also just say this out loud? Counseling, even coaching, is such a female-dominated profession, particularly in the relational space, and I think that there can sometimes be so much value and validation and a sense of safety for many men coming into this kind of work to be able to work with a male therapist, a male coach. Not always. Sometimes men get triggered by other men. Like, that’s a thing too. But I just appreciate who you are in the space and what you do. And so if somebody wanted to work with you, what’s the next step? They could come to growingself.com/seth. But what does that look like when you meet with somebody for the first time? I know it’s a free consultation, and what goes on there?

Seth: It depends on how much information I have beforehand that’s given. So sometimes we go in cold, and sometimes we have a lot more information. But really what I’m trying to do in a consultation is just have a conversation. Which is to learn more about the client, or the prospective client, and learn more about the goals, learn a little bit about the context of the situation, with the little time that we have, to understand more what they want, and to help get some nominal goals, which can be fine-tuned later on if the client wants to move forward.

Seth: But learning more about the problem, learning more about the goals, and trying to non-pathologize what’s happening. And saying, “Okay, what’s happening with you makes sense. What’s happening with you is explainable.” That doesn’t make it any easier to deal with in the moment, but just to let a client know, “Hey, you’re not alone. You’re not the only person dealing with this.” And to be someone that’s responsive and to listen. And that can be hard in a consultation, because there’s so much information you have to get through. But at the same time, I really want to learn a little bit about what’s making that client tick. And being able to listen, and to be able to convey, “Hey, you can talk to me. I’m listening, and I will be here.”

Dr. Lisa: That’s so good. And so that’s what happens, you guys. Let’s have a conversation. What’s going on? Who are you? What do you want? A little bit of the context. And am I the right person to help you? And also that nobody’s gonna judge you, nobody’s going to vilify you. This is very common and normal, and really understandable, honestly, when we look at it in context of life. And that there is a path to changing it and making it better for both of you. And this is what you do.

Seth: Right. And also, to piggyback off that, to convey that I’m not always the right person for a client. And I’m happy to let that be known. Because I want to help the client find the right fit, no matter who it is. If it’s me, wonderful. Let’s move forward, let’s work. If it’s not me, that’s just as good. Let me help you find someone else who might be a better fit, maybe internally or externally, depending on the situation. So that’s part of the process, where I’m trying to determine for myself, can I help this person meet their needs, given what they’re presenting to me.

Dr. Lisa: I always worry about situations where people are forced to sign up for some subscription, not having met somebody. You know what I mean? And so it should be like an interview. Where’s this going? Does this feel good on both sides? If yes, then we go. But also, Seth, you’re saying, “Let me help you find the next step, even if it isn’t with me.”

Seth: Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa: All right. Well, I know we need to get going, but you guys, if you’d like to deal with that with Seth, growingself.com/seth. And then otherwise, Seth, this has been such a joy, and I hope you come back soon for another conversation, ’cause it’s really illuminating.

Seth: I would love to. Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa: That was such a good conversation. I don’t know about you guys, I love Seth. Seth and I have worked together for a long time. I think the world of him. He’s such a lovely person, and also so insightful, truly. I hope you got a lot out of hearing his perspective and also his recommendations.

Dr. Lisa: Before we wrap up, I wanted to put one more resource in front of you. One of the things that stood out for me in this conversation is that it can be so hard to get visibility into how we are perceived by others, particularly when we ourselves might be struggling, right? Like as you learned today, when any of us get a little controlling, it’s usually motivated by our own pain. Our own anxiety, our own fears, our own feeling like we need to protect ourselves. So it’s all these vulnerable places. But in the moment, when we’re feeling that way and somebody’s like, “I think you’re being a little controlling right now,” that’s not actually what we wanna hear in that moment. But then it turns into this gridlock where, how can we fix it if we can’t really see it? It’s hard to let in other people’s feedback, and that’s when you’re really stuck.

Dr. Lisa: So the resource that I have in mind for you, in addition to coming and talking to Seth, by the way, he’s phenomenal, is a free resource that I put together a while ago on my website. It is a How Healthy Is Your Relationship? quiz. And in this quiz, it asks a bunch of different questions that is not designed to place blame or get anyone in trouble. To the contrary, what it will do is show you first and foremost all of the strengths in your relationship, the parts that are going well, right? Because every relationship is a mixed bag. All relationships have strengths. But also, all relationships have growth opportunities. And as you answer the questions about your own experiences in the relationship, you can gain some insight into how you are feeling.

Dr. Lisa: But here is the really cool part. If you and your partner both take this together and answer honestly, right? Like, “Here is how I feel in this relationship subjectively, what is true for me.” Then, if it’s safe to do so. And if you know it’s gonna turn into an explosive thing where everybody’s gonna be upset, don’t do it. Get help. Get a facilitator in the room who can help you work through this in a controlled and organized way. It’ll be much more productive. We certainly don’t wanna make things worse.

Dr. Lisa: But if this is like a mild to moderate thing, and it hasn’t deteriorated to the point where you can’t talk to each other, you can each take this assessment and then exchange results and look at it non-defensively and think, “Okay, this is how my partner responded to these questions. Here is how they are experiencing me.” Whether or not I agree with that, because I have all my own reasons for being who I am and how I am and why I am, right? Like, we get very attached to, “Well, this is why.” We still need to let it in. Here’s how they experience me. This is how they feel.

Dr. Lisa: And like you heard Seth and I talking about, what would it be like if my partner actually does feel this way a lot of times in their interactions with me? Particularly if they’re flagging things like control, or how Seth was talking about sometimes our maladaptive communication patterns. Yelling at people, or going all ice queen on people. In the moment they’re part of coping, but they’re also strategic when it comes to relational systems, right? If we yell loud enough, somebody will finally listen or do what we want them to do. Or if we withdraw to silence, then they’ll know that we’re really upset and we’ll be open to whatever. So I think we need to own that. But also, again, understand how our partners are experiencing us, that may be different than how we experience ourselves. And that’s really important.

Dr. Lisa: It is challenging work, right? Whenever we sit with any of our stuff and be like, “Hmm, yeah, I guess I do do that. And it probably isn’t awesome to be another person in the room with me when I’m showing up that way.” And as uncomfortable as it is, though, no other change is really possible until we take ownership for ourselves and take responsibility and commit to changing it, you know?

Dr. Lisa: So if you see something in there that makes you feel bad and be like, “Ugh, I don’t want my partner to see me that way,” take it seriously, right? Because their feedback is such a gift. The only people who are going to tell you how it really feels to be with you are the ones that care enough about you and this relationship to go through the trouble. And there is such a powerful opportunity when somebody gives you the gift of that authenticity and honesty, to then be able to do something about it. Versus the alternatives, which are, A, not knowing at all how really distressed and unhappy your partner is. I talk to people all the time who get blindsided by breakups. And no, a switch does not just flip and your partner changes their mind one day. This was brewing for a while. You just didn’t know about it. So that’s one advantage of having these courageous conversations.

Dr. Lisa: But the other thing also is that you have the opportunity to do something differently. And if we don’t take this seriously, if we don’t take feedback from our partners, if we keep going and doing what we wanna do, and be controlling, and be weird, and have our own stuff, and it is impacting other people, after a while we run out of chances to show people that we can show up differently. And after a while, their trust in us will erode, and that is also when relationships really start to die from the inside out.

Dr. Lisa: So I just wanna say this: it’s okay to feel challenged by this stuff, and to not love it, and it feels hard to confront these things in yourself. Listen, if you need support, I get it, and it’s available for you. People like Seth, people like me, that’s what we do. So you don’t have to do it alone. And you don’t have to do it at all. If somebody is giving you feedback that is really needing you to change in ways that feel absolutely inauthentic and incongruent, and like you would not be yourself if you were complying with their ideal situation, that is also absolutely valid. You don’t have to do that in order to maintain this specific relationship, and it’s okay to have that conversation too. However, if this is the relationship that you wanna be in, we all have a responsibility to keep our side of the street clean, and that requires being able to look at what that side actually involves.

Dr. Lisa: So I hope that the conversation with Seth and the resource that I shared with you, the relationship quiz, growingself.com/relationship-quiz. You can also find it just if you go to the free resources section at growingself.com. It’s right there in the main nav. Take that quiz, start a conversation. Of course, if you wanna connect with Seth at growingself.com/seth, you can book your free consultation with him. Or, and I have a lot of other great people that I work with too, if you wanna browse around. But that’s how this works. We take it seriously.

Dr. Lisa: All right, you guys. Thank you so much for spending this time with me today. I hope it was instructive and helpful, and I will be back in touch with you soon for another episode of Love, Happiness, and Success. So take care.