Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy

The Love, Happiness & Success Podcast with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

Music Credits: “All This Love,” by Russo and Weinberg

Emotionally Focused Therapy for Couples

Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy is an evidence-based approach to couples counseling that helps you fix your relationship on a deep level by repairing your attachment bond. It’s powerful stuff! 

Here’s why: EFT Therapy for couples doesn’t give you trite relationship advice. (You know, the kind of communication strategies advice that goes right out the window when people get upset with each other?) Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy — also known as EFCT,  or EFT for short — actually changes the way you feel. 

What is EFT?

EFT is an experiential approach to couples therapy, meaning that it’s not about learning skills and strategies (though you’ll get those along the way too). EFCT will help you understand yourself and your partner differently, so that the moments that would have led to anger or hurt feelings in the past, can actually become powerful moments of bonding and connection

If this sounds amazing… it actually is amazing. I’ve been honored to work as a marriage counselor guiding couples through this process. I can honestly say that when couples “shift” from viewing each other as hostile and emotionally dangerous to seeing each other vulnerable and in need of love and care — it is beautiful: empathy and compassion start to flow naturally. Through these new experiences, and shift in emotional perspective, everything about a relationship can change for the better.

The Practice of Emotionally Focused Therapy

Because Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy is such a powerful form of marriage counseling — and so darn effective — I really wanted to unpack it for you on today’s episode of the podcast, so you can understand how it works, and how to use the principles of EFT therapy to benefit your relationship.

I’ve invited Anastacia S., MA, LMFT to join me on today’s show to answer your questions about emotionally focused couples therapy, and to discuss how EFT therapy works. 

Anastacia is an advanced, licensed marriage and family therapist. She practices Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy, and she is also a clinical supervisor who trains other therapists seeking to become EFCT marriage counselors. 

She has so much wisdom to share on this topic, and I’m delighted to share her perspective with you today! You can listen to her relationship advice using the podcast player above, or listen to “Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy” on Spotify or on Apple Podcasts. (Be sure to subscribe to the Love, Happiness and Success Podcast while you’re there!) 

EFT Therapy

What is emotionally focused therapy? Listen to learn everything you ever wanted to know about EFT couples therapy and how it can help YOU transform your relationship. Ana and I are discussing:

  • What Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy is, and how it’s different from other forms of couples counseling.
  • How attachment styles impact your relationships.
  • How our early experiences in our family of origin can impact our ways of relating as adults.
  • How couples fall into negative spirals of reacting to each other, and why that’s so toxic to your relationship.
  • What happens to relationships when we begin to create a “negative story” about our partners.
  • Why healthy, securely attached people can appear to have avoidant or anxious tendencies in a distressed relationship.
  • Understanding the pursue/withdraw pattern, and how to extract yourself from it.
  • How to cultivate a secure attachment bond with your partner through emotional connection and responsiveness
  • The difference between primary and secondary emotions.
  • Cultural differences (and similarities) around how we connect and bond.
  • What to do if you’re feeling like your relationship is too far gone for couples therapy.
  • And so much more.

Ana and I both sincerely hope that this discussion helps you restore the love and connection in your relationship, in order to keep it strong, secure and healthy for years to come.

Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

Listen & Subscribe to the Podcast

Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy

The Love, Happiness & Success Podcast with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

Music Credits: “All This Love,” by Russo and Weinberg

Free, Expert Advice — For You.

Subscribe To The Love, Happiness, and Success Podcast

[00:00:00] Dr. Lisa Marie: This is Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, and you’re listening to the Love, Happiness and Success podcast.

All This Love by Russo and Weinberg, a song about a deeply authentic relationship between two people who are growing and changing, together. I thought that song was the perfect intro to our topic today, because on today’s episode, we are doing a deep dive into what it really takes to fix a relationship in a deep and enduring way.

If you’ve ever listened to this program before, you know that I am intensely passionate about not just personal growth work, but evidence-based approaches that we know are going to meaningfully and genuinely lead people into real and lasting transformational change, particularly when it comes to relationships.

If you’ve listened to me before, you will also know that I often talk about the fact that almost all of what passes these days for couples counseling is conducted by practitioners who are not qualified to be working with couples. They are not practicing evidence-based forms of couples counseling.

There are really negative consequences to this at best. It’s a big waste of time and money when somebody shows up for help and it’s ineffective, but at worst, this can lead to a real tragedy for not just a couple, but a family, because if a couple shows up with a sincere desire to get help and connects with somebody who genuinely doesn’t know how to help them, that can be their one and only chance at saving their relationship, saving their family – and it heads to divorce. 

Yes, kids are resilient, AND the life path of children whose parents divorce is different than it is for kids whose parents figure out to have a, not just secure and stable, but happy, healthy relationship that they get to model for them.

There are real and important things on the table, and that is why I’m so passionate about this topic. And that’s why, as the clinical director of Growing Self Counseling and Coaching, my number one mission is to always make sure that every person who comes to us for help, particularly at a fork in the road moment for their relationship, is getting connected to a really good marriage and family therapist who specializes in this work and who also practices evidence-based forms of couples counseling and who can really help them. We do that in a variety of ways.

We vet the heck out of everybody who applies at Growing Self and we look at education and their experience, but also we are looking for strong skills in very specific evidence-based forms of couples counseling, and especially a very important one called Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy. 

EFCT is a powerhouse of growth for couples and it leads to real and lasting fundamental change. It’s the kind of counseling where people come out the other side and they don’t have to try anymore – like, they have changed because of the experience of growth: it’s tremendous, it’s important, and it’s a lot of what we do around here. 

I wanted to talk with you about this particular type of couples counseling today, so that you understand it and can make educated and informed decisions, especially if you’re at a crossroads moment for your relationship.

And today to dive into this, I have invited one of my colleagues on this program, Anastasia Sams. Anastacia is a licensed marriage and family therapist who works alongside me here at Growing Self. She and I have worked together for years. She is phenomenal in many ways, and she is a true expert in Emotionally Focused Therapy.

I invited her today to talk with us about this important subject and to share her wisdom with us today. 

Anastacia, thank you so much for being here with me. 

[00:04:41] Anastacia: Thanks for having me!

[00:04:43] Dr. Lisa Marie: Again! I should say, it’s just occurring to me that we’ve done this a couple of times on different topics over the years. I know we connected last year where you shared your wisdom around grief and loss. And I know we talked a while ago about your insight into people who are seeking to increase their self-esteem, and such wonderful conversations. But we haven’t talked before specifically about Emotionally Focused Therapy… and it’s time.

So to dive in, I’m hoping that we can just start our conversation with just a general overview about what Emotionally Focused Couples Therapy is and how you perceive it as being really different from a lot of other approaches. 

[00:05:28] Anastacia: Yeah. I think the premise behind EFT Therapy is that it’s very easy for couples to get into a negative cycle of communication where either they’re arguing about the same things or their arguments are never really getting fully resolved – and building on top of each other. So the goal of EFT is to really understand, for each partner, what the more vulnerable emotions and needs are that are getting lost in translation. And then after revealing that, helping them to create a new, healthier cycle of communicating that incorporates that more vulnerable expression of emotions and needs.

I think EFT is different because a lot of other theoretical orientations focus more on the thoughts, or I think the trying to change behaviors, but not really looking at the root cause of those behaviors and addressing those first. 

[00:06:28] Dr. Lisa Marie: That right there is so important because I think a lot of times when couples show up, that’s what they think it’s going to be like, we’re going to tell them, “okay, here’s how to communicate” or whatever. “So do this, not that.” And they’re gonna be like, “okay, great.” And then that’s going to change something. 

However, what we know and what EFT is, exactly what you’re saying, is we can tell you what to do differently and if you feel upset (or angry or hurt or resentful or afraid or whatever the things are), you will not be able to do the behaviors – and so, your approach in EFT is we have to go into what is really happening on a deeper level and get that sorted out and then, it changes. 

I’m so glad you brought that up and you also said something that I thought was so important, which is that, oh, I don’t know the way you phrased it. I won’t phrase it as nicely as you did, but you said that “couples in distress have predictable patterns and ways of relating that become problematic.” Can you say a little bit more about that? Because I almost want to, like, normalize that this is where people start and just what that looks like.

[00:07:52] Anastacia: Yeah, I think it’s very normal, especially because each person has things from their family history, ways of attaching or building relationships that have some root in how they grew up or the messages that they received growing up. And so a lot of times there are triggers that neither partner knows about that are getting actively triggered.

The way of responding to those triggers is often rooted in something from earlier on, whether it’s early childhood or early adulthood. And so then those ways of reacting start to create this pattern and this cycle that really creates distance from each other. But it’s something that’s very normal and also something that is very much reversible as well.

[00:08:42] Dr. Lisa Marie: Can you give us an example of one of the common patterns with a couple who is, maybe getting triggered by each other and who isn’t even aware a lot of times the person getting triggered doesn’t even understand why they’re feeling the way they are much less their partner – what do you see as common iterations of some of those patterns and what’s going on when people first show up to you?

[00:09:07] Anastacia: I think, typically what I see, is there’s usually one partner who is more likely to express their feelings outwardly to their partner, but sometimes in a way that, maybe there’s a tone or it comes across as harsh, but really, just trying to connect and share, “I’m feeling hurt,” but it may come out as criticism. 

And so then, what happens, is then there’s typically another partner who, when they hear that, they completely shut down and withdraw. And then that continues because that first partner sees that shut down and that withdrawal and then tries to communicate even more because now they’re not feeling heard. Which then results in the other partner shutting down even more so. 

[00:09:58] Dr. Lisa Marie: …they get stuck in the cycle almost when one person is like “you never talked to me!” and the other person is like “I got to go,” like that self perpetuating thing. And what would you say starts to happen to people in a relationship if they’re stuck in that very normal, common cycle for a period of time, because it’s hard to unwind it yourself, right?

What do you see starting to happen to people? When they get trapped in that? 

[00:10:30] Anastacia: I think a few things, there’s definitely a frustration that’s felt on both sides. And I think there is resentment that can build up. So feelings of resentment. And then I think underneath the surface are a lot of feelings of sadness or questioning of self worth or, “does my partner really care about me?”

[00:10:52] Dr. Lisa Marie: … “Why are they doing this? Why are they treating me this way?” And I don’t know if you’ve noticed this with your cases, but what I see in mine is that over time, people can erroneously start to believe that “this is the way my partner is because it’s based on evidence.” Like, “they’re just an angry person. They will never be satisfied. They will never be happy.” 

Or “this person is just like the most emotionally immature person. They cannot have a conversation.” 

It’s like there’s this narrative that starts to get created. It’s based on people’s experiences, but it’s so diabolical.

If it’s who your partner is fundamentally as a person, where do you go from there? It’s like the only choice is to break up. 

But I heard you say “that’s not true. It’s reversible.” And that’s where that emotionally focused therapy approach comes in. That’s the only way to really get out of this.

Is that what you were saying? 

[00:11:57] Anastacia: Yeah, definitely. And I think it can be uncomfortable work at first because a lot of times when you’re talking about the more vulnerable feelings and emotions, those are typically things that don’t get talked about, especially once this cycle has been going on for quite a while.

And so it can even be hard to believe your partner when you hear them say, “I am sad when I withdraw.” Like “when I’m being critical, it’s because I feel unheard.” 

[00:12:24] Dr. Lisa Marie: Yeah. The other partner is like “That’s not true. You’re just a horrible person.”

[00:12:28] Anastacia: “I’ve never heard you say that before.” And so I think that as the work continues, and both partners lean into that discomfort, I think part of the work is understanding for each person, just historically what they’ve learned about relationships and communication, and what some of those experiences have been that influence the way that they present in their relationship. 

And then also helping each person to start communicating underneath the anger or frustration or annoyance, those are secondary emotions and they always have a traveling buddy that’s more vulnerable. 

And instead of saying “I’m angry” and now you’re yelling. The goal is to be able to say, “I feel really unheard,” or, “I feel really disappointed” and for the other partner to be able to hear that and show empathy and understanding towards that and then also express what they feel as well. 

[00:13:25] Dr. Lisa Marie: Yeah, no, I love that. And you use the word vulnerability so many times. Why is helping your couples create that mutual vulnerability, which is hard to do, and especially, I think, without an Anastacia sitting there, it can disintegrate into a fight. And that’s why, really people need support to do this, but why is achieving vulnerable space so important in your view and through the lens of emotionally focused couples therapy?

[00:14:00] Anastacia: Yeah, I think it’s so important because being in a relationship with someone is super scary, getting to that level of closeness and intimacy – I think that there are a lot of fears that come up. Then you can create this guardedness, but that vulnerability is so important, to be able to deepen the intimacy and maintain that emotional intimacy. And without that then it’s really just the surface level of frustration and anger that kind of just gets passed back and forth.

[00:14:32] Dr. Lisa Marie: The vulnerability is the doorway to that kind of intimacy. And you used the term when we were first talking together too, you mentioned attachment a couple of times. Can you give just like a basic refresher on what attachment is and how that plays into this emotionally focused model? 

[00:14:54] Anastacia: Attachment is essentially based on your early childhood experiences with your caregivers. And so depending on what those experiences were, they affect how you attach or feel connected to your caregiver, and that attachment then influences the way that you connect with people later on in adulthood.

And so there are a few different types [of attachment styles]. There’s the secure attachment: that’s the goal, that’s always the goal. And then there’s an anxious attachment and an avoidant attachment style as well. And so those can play a role because, if I’m anxiously attached, then I may be the one who, like when I try to communicate, it seems like I’m criticizing, but really I’m really wanting connection. And there’s this underlying fear that maybe I’m too much

Or if I have an avoidant attachment style, then I crave that connection as well. But I fear that I’m not enough. And so then I shut down.

And so being able to understand that too is helpful. 

[00:16:03] Dr. Lisa Marie: Yeah and how those attachment styles interplay. I always thought that was one of the most fascinating things about this model, because we also know, because relationships are systems – and people impact each other, while there is no such thing as a perfectly secure person, but hypothetically, if there was such a thing as a perfectly secure person, and you put them in a relationship with somebody who had a strong say, avoidant attachment style, they would become more anxious in response to that, to try to get their needs met from somebody who had avoidant tendencies.

And vice versa, if you put a secure person in a relationship with an anxious person, they’re shut down a little bit because of that intensity. And that just blew my mind when I was first introduced to that idea.

I think it’s really helped me to think about that perfectly normal, healthy people who did not have adverse life experiences and are just fine in a distressed relationship will begin to appear as being anxious or, and often complimentary avoidant, because of the distress and the relationship, like not necessarily some wounding that they’re carrying on the inside too.

That can be very hard to tease apart. Is that something that comes up for you in your work? Is this something that a person carried into their relationship or are they appearing this way because of the relationship? Or am I making this way too complicated than it actually is? 

[00:17:49] Anastacia: No, no, no, that’s a good question. I think I tend to see more of it being carried in, but I do think I have a few examples where, because of the relationship, that can then influence a person’s attachment style. And so then I think it’s sorting through that, like sorting through the triggers for each person, 

[00:18:13] Dr. Lisa Marie: Where does it come from? When does that happen? I could see how that would be so illuminating for a lot of the couples you work with, especially if there are some old wounds, and to have a conversation in order to feel safe in this relationship you are going to have to get more of X from your partner. And what does that look like?

I could see that being super healing. 

So helping couples understand each other on that deeper level: the vulnerability, the attachment, and really taking a look at how it’s all working together and as we know, that insight isn’t enough, what happens next after couples are like, “okay, I understand why you screamed at me because of this.” And, “it makes sense to me now,” but we can’t stay there. Where do you take people?

[00:19:04] Anastacia: Yeah, I think it’s learning to respond differently. And so being able to identify the emotions, those primary emotions. Being able to communicate those. And so of course, you also get angry but then taking a moment and thinking through, okay, what am I actually feeling under that, underneath this anger?

And then coming back and having a discussion, “I felt really hurt when you did X, Y, and Z.” 

I think it sounds really nice and well-packaged, but I think getting there is a little messy too, and sometimes you get angry, you fall into your cycle, and then you realize “we just got into that cycle again, but here’s actually what was going on for me.”

[00:19:52] Dr. Lisa Marie: Yeah, to be able to repair it. And that is, I think, incredibly important because it’s an experiential process where over time people start thinking about themselves and their internal experience differently and their partner’s differently. And it’s like this real, I don’t know how to say it, this transformational change. I don’t know if you ever get this, but I have such a reaction because sometimes people will ask me, like, Relationship advice questions – and it’s “Dr. Lisa, this is going on, what do I do in this situation?”

And really it’s “over a period of 16 to 20 weeks, I would like for you two to have this transformational experience because it’s not a ‘do this and it’ll change.’ It’s this growth thing.” And that makes me sad sometimes because I think people are actually looking for an answer, there is an answer, but it’s not like an informational answer.

It’s an experiential answer. Is that correct?

[00:20:59] Anastacia: No, it is. That makes sense. And I think too, especially, especially in our culture, we’re used to being able to have an answer or something to solve the problems quickly. And I think what’s difficult is getting into that negative cycle of communication, it happens over time and unfortunately, the process of undoing that and creating a new cycle also has to happen over time as well.

[00:21:24] Dr. Lisa Marie: Yeah, that it’s a process. And also, I wanted to ask, and you brought up, the kind of cultural expectations around what fixing a relationship actually looks like – and for some people it’s “do this, and then that” what we know from our evidence based approach and the research is that, that doesn’t work or it doesn’t work for long because it is that kind of more superficial thing. 

But now emotionally focused therapy has also gotten a little bit of criticism over the years because there I think it also has a cultural orientation towards connecting through having face-to-face emotionally intimate conversations about vulnerable things and about our feelings. And that is not always, I don’t want to say true, because in different cultures or different kinds of ways of being there are many different ways of connecting and attaching. And so we know attachment is always there, but I’m wondering if you could speak a little bit to that.

Are there people that you need to modify that for? And not the attachment, not the vulnerability, but the talking about feeling. Could I just say it, that’s like a white thing in some ways, it’s therapy with white women specifically in, like, creating attachment through conversations.

Can you speak to that aspect of it a little bit? Cause it’s not true for everybody. 

[00:22:55] Anastacia: Yeah, definitely. I think it really depends. And I think that the way that I tend to modify it is, “how can we communicate from an ‘I feel’ perspective and really take accountability for your feelings instead of accusing or criticizing.”

I think that’s probably even something that, for example, some clients of color are used to having guards up when they are in the world and those are necessary, really, especially in our country. And so some of that work then is, okay, “how can you keep that guard up but then when you come home, how can you let that guard down with your partner?” 

[00:23:38] Dr. Lisa Marie: Yeah. Honoring that there are different ways of relating in different contexts, but to bring that sort of softness into your relationship and that trust there. That kind of peace.

Do you find that sometimes, you know I’m thinking, even a stereotypical man, and I don’t want to gender stereotype because we also know very emotionally sensitive and very verbally, emotionally verbal men…that’s a thing. But also I’m even thinking of clients that I’ve had, who even Asian cultures, sometimes it’s like talking about their feelings is not their number one go-to way of connecting. And are there other things that you can offer or help people to do, to create that connection that really does play to their strengths and ways of being in the world. 

And also just to say too, I think I’ve seen relationships where one person is very highly focused on, “I need you to talk about your feelings in order for me to…  and I need to talk about my feelings,” and that’s not a strength or a natural, comfortable state. Do you ever see that with your couples? And I’m curious, are there alternatives or is it always, “no, we just, we talk about feelings?” 

[00:25:05] Anastacia: I think it’s a both/and. A lot of it is deconstructing the messages that people have received around emissions in general. And so I think that is something that I have seen help a lot is being able to deconstruct those and then, keep what’s working, but also, get rid of what’s not working, especially for the relationship. 

I find that helps too and I think of examples of, using the example of one partner, who’s like “I need you to talk about your emotions and I’m going to talk about mine.” There’s a tendency for a lot of criticism to happen in that example.

And so I think about someone, if their partner, if their love language is words of affirmation, then that can be really damaging. And so looking at that as well. 

[00:25:54] Dr. Lisa Marie: And just introducing that idea, that not all people experience love in exactly the same way, and that true love is appreciating and valuing your partner and understanding who they are and why they are the way they are. 

And showing them love in a way that is meaningful to them as opposed to unconscious false hope I think we all fall into, They could be more like me. 

[00:26:21] Anastacia: Yeah. Something I like to tell my couples too, is to work towards the idea because they think it’s so natural and easy to say, “you know what? These are your faults, and these are my needs. You’re not meeting me.” Right?? And so I like to help my couples work towards changing that mindset to, “okay. These are my growth areas that I’m going to be working on and okay, these are your needs. So I’m going to do what I can to meet those needs.”

And when that’s the mindset it’s wonderful because you’re both focused on meeting each other’s needs. So those needs do get met. You’re both also focusing on your own accountability and growth areas in the relationship. 

[00:27:11] Dr. Lisa Marie: That’s such a powerful paradigm shift. Isn’t it? What do I need to work on in order to be a better partner for you and meet your needs? And it’s almost like this leap of faith and trust, and “if I do that, I’m going to trust that you will see me and care about me the same.” 

I just got chills. Okay. I know we just have a couple of minutes left and I’m going to run a situation past you. And you probably know, so we get all kinds of listener questions on Instagram and Facebook, or sometimes on the blog at GrowingSelf.com.

Here’s one that came in recently, and this is an example of, I think what we were talking about earlier, somebody is like, “okay, tell me what to do,” but here’s the question. I’m just, I’m curious for your take. 

“What are some strategies for a person in a relationship who didn’t show up for years in the way their partner wanted or needed. The other partner tried for years to encourage change, see me, care about me, but now after so many years of not getting those needs met, they feel really shut down. And the partner who didn’t create an emotionally safe environment and respond before, now is aware that there is a problem. They’re doing all this personal growth work and they’ve apologized. They’re now being different: they’re taking responsibility, they’re listening, they’re showing up, but it’s not changing the way that I feel. It almost feels like it’s too late.”

When you look at that situation from an emotionally focused lens, that’s a couple that is pretty far gone and that’s why I really work hard to encourage couples “don’t wait! Come in sooner.” Because there can be that point of no return which is sad, but anyway – if you missed the first memo of get in sooner, rather than later and now you’re in this situation where you’re like, “they’re changing, but I’m not sure I care anymore.”

Is there still hope for this couple from an attachment, emotionally focused lens, where would you even start? 

[00:29:26] Anastacia: Yeah, I think so. They would have to start with trust, because it’s absent, it’s not shown up for years and years and has created an injury in their relationship. And so then trust has to start to be rebuilt.

I think it’s okay for the partner to be burnt out and having trouble believing this new side of their partner. I think that’s normal because that trust has been broken. And so I think that it takes rebuilding trust and being able to start to recognize any resentment, maybe even some grieving from all of those years.

And too, there does come a point where, you know, exploring what forgiveness looks like once a lot of the rebuilding trust has happened as well. 

[00:30:19] Dr. Lisa Marie: But just as you said, that I know from my experience talking about many months of just being able to articulate “here is how this injured me, and this is what happened to me. And this is why it was so hurtful. And here’s why I don’t trust you anymore.” Even that can take like months to start to unwind, and then leading into that sort of repairing, and then rebuilding and forgiving. 

It’s a perfect example of why this person sent this question on the blog and was like, “okay, Dr. Lisa, what do I do?” 

So the answer is to immerse yourself in the experiential process with Anastasia, to begin to peel this onion layer by layer, experiment with starting to be vulnerable again, even if it is only to tell your partner how much you actually hate them, and why, and have them hear that in a different way. 

This is the beginning stages of emotionally focused work and it is not a simple solution, but I think it’s the only meaningful answer. Is that an overstatement? Is that hyperbole? Is this the only way to actually heal this? 

[00:31:44] Anastacia: No, I don’t think so. I think when it gets to that plane, it’s hard to see past your own feelings and thoughts about everything. And so having that third person be able to help navigate through all of that is helpful. 

[00:32:00] Dr. Lisa Marie: ….And with as much empathy and compassion as you. People are so lucky to get to work with you. And sincerely, I think people don’t really know how it works and they do things that just aren’t even close to what they really need. 

Yeah, this is like a public service message to the world. Thank you!

[00:32:24] Anastacia: Yeah. And it’s funny too, because I love real Housewives, there’s a few that I like to watch and I see this in a lot of them where there’s been infidelity and you see them even going to a counselor, but they’re going to their own individual counselor or I watched another couple where they went to a therapist for their relationship, and they actually were vulnerable, especially the partner who tends to withdrawal – opened up. And the therapist was like, “great, you opened up. So, now we need to figure out how to move on.” And I was like, “nooooo!”

[00:33:08] Dr. Lisa Marie: Thank you so much for your time today. This was such an interesting conversation, as always. 

[00:33:14] Anastacia: Thank you for having me.

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  1. I am in a long distance relationship and have been for 7 years. He lives in Arkansas, and I live in Virignia. We need therapy and it will have to be virtual. Is this something that is available for us?

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