Women in Leadership: Why It’s Lonely at the Top (and What Helps)

Dr. Lisa: My friends, we can spend so much of our lives climbing the ladder, right? Like attempting to attain higher and higher levels of success, believing that, finally arriving in this leadership position, maybe it’s your own business, maybe it’s a director level position, like you’ll finally have the career experience that you have been dreaming of and try to make happen for a long time. Then once we start living it, reality creeps in.

Dr. Natasha: You know, if you don’t have that person or even just one person to be able to say, “Hey, this meeting was really hard. This is what was going through my head. Does any of this make sense?” All that stuff. It’s just, it’s a lot to carry on your own.

Dr. Lisa: What is often surprising is how difficult and even painful it can be, especially for you to be in leadership roles.

Dr. Natasha: You have an intuition, but you know, you want to run it by somebody who, for whom you don’t have to explain all of the layers of being a woman and being a woman of color. Maybe you’re also a first generation, you know, person in your field and your family, and it just starts to pile up and it can be really, really isolating and stressful.

Dr. Lisa: And so if you are feeling this way, a, nothing is necessarily wrong, this might be the experience, but also on today’s podcast, I have a very special treat for you. We’re going to spend time with my dear friend and colleague, Dr. Natasha Thapar-Olmos. She is a psychologist with a strong clinical background and also does a lot of work in organizational psychology.

Dr. Natasha: And I’m going to share with you a little bit about her own personal and professional journey, since it’s really informs the work that I do with clients and really has helped me to define the clients that I, you know, I’m also best suited to work with. I’ve been in formal leadership roles, I mean, since college, right? So various student organizations, and then in graduate school, spiritual community. And then once I got licensed as a psychologist and really began my career post grad school, I’ve held a number of, you know, I’ve held a number of, you know, professional leadership roles. Post grad school have held a number of, you know, leadership positions, some with pretty high visibility. We know where I was managing a team of staff members and faculty, and then others where, you know, again, like I had, I was aware that I had influence, but not necessarily a title. And so I think the experience can be, can be kind of exhilarating in the sense of if we think of leadership as influence, you know, for those of us who are really driven by values and want to make a material impact, there’s so much that you can do. I think what surprised me perhaps the most was how lonely it can be and how lonely it has been for me in certain roles. I think there’s a layer for women of color that, that makes that loneliness even more intense.

Dr. Lisa: Who do you talk to about some of this stuff? Who can relate and that it’s, I think, very important to like develop that community. But a lot of the day to day is you’re on your own to figure it out. Take the other two years experience it and then how is that maybe amplified for women of color?

Dr. Natasha: Even if you look at the proportion of women workers at entry level positions. So, I think to the extent that a woman’s experience is impacted by what she’s seeing around the table in the conference room or in the boardroom, who and what, I think that that can contribute to that feeling of loneliness. I think when you are in a role where you are managing a team or responsible for mentoring others and you also report to somebody who’s structurally in the organization above you, if you look around at your level, like you mentioned earlier, there might not be that many people, women to confide in and to sort of be able to say, like, “Hey, can we chat real quick because this thing happened and like, I don’t know if it’s just me or if I misinterpret like those gut check type things. Who are you going to do that with?” The pool becomes smaller and smaller and I think what happens for women and this is where there’s an additional layer because there’s even that many fewer women around the table. Maybe many women of color, the higher they go become the only, right? The only in the room and so no one really can understand that experience and so it’s hard to find that kind of support and have those informal like gut checks or you have an intuition but you want to run it by somebody for whom you don’t have to explain all the layers of being a woman and being a woman of color and maybe you’re also a first generation person in your field and your family and it just starts to pile up and it can be really, really isolating and stressful.

Dr. Lisa: That is, as a woman who in a lot of situations is a minority in a larger organizational environment that you may have different ways of thinking about things, different perceptions, different ways of solving problems, different ways of relating to people that are not what other people are doing, like kind of the dominant culture that can maybe lead to second guessing yourself, feeling alone, is this the right way? And then though, who do you go to to work through some of that? And that’s kind of the seed of the loneliness but it’s also amplified when perhaps some cultural differences or perspectives are then layered on top of that so that it feels like harder to connect with people who really truly understand your perspective without having to go through a lot of educating them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Natasha: Yeah. I mean, I have a concrete example comes to mind. Similarly, within the broader group women of color, there’s such a diversity of experience and identity and but just to share an example, like being the only, let’s say you’re the only woman in a boardroom, right? And you’re looking around, there’s like a culture that’s been established and you’re sort of standing out as a woman, being aware of that contributes to how you’re feeling, whether that might be stressful, that might be empowering, it could be a range of things. But usually oftentimes women talk about feeling like, and there’s been so many great books written on this topic in terms of women are penalized when they’re too direct. I mean, I’ll speak for myself, in my upbringing as a South Asian person, the respect for elders was something that was very significant. And it looked like a very specific behavior, which was you don’t interrupt elders, you don’t talk back to elders and you don’t, you know, there’s a lot of rules around that. And all cultures have their own, their own values around respect for elders. But how I noticed this coming up was I would be in rooms with older men. When I was in a, recently, several years ago in a leadership position, I was in a meeting room with mostly older white men. And my sort of conditioning, cultural conditioning of like, oh, you don’t, you don’t challenge elders, right? Like you don’t speak, you know, you do that in a gentle way, you sort of, you make it softer, you, or maybe you don’t say anything at all in the meeting in front of other people. Maybe you bring that up in another way. Like I, you know, the internal like battle between like, wait a second, my like, you know, if my, if my grandfather, you know, heard what I just said, you know, I would be, it would be so disrespectful. But then also like, but hold on, this is not, I’m not in a room with my grandfather. That is not my grandfather. That is not my grandfather. But like, right? So like then, so all your conditioning, but then also like, what’s your objective? And what’s the context and like orienting to that? And then on top of that, you’re also managing, you know, as a woman, maybe you’ve received explicit or implicit, you know, messages about what people expect from you or what they don’t expect from you. I mean, it’s just like so much. But like, I mean, it’s kind of crazy making. And I think for a lot of women, it’s, there’s so much stress that comes from that, that, you know, if you don’t have that person or even just one person to be able to say, hey, this meeting was really hard. This is what was going through my head. Does any of this make sense? All that stuff. It’s just, it’s a lot to carry on your own.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, it really is. And even these moments that may be to others in the room might be another day at the office can start to feel emotionally fraught in this way that over time has this energetic hole that it takes, especially when it happens over and over again. Yeah. Right. Right. So interesting. And, you know, I think that it should, it should be said too, that probably the type of environment that you’re leading in has a big impact. And so there are certainly like what you’re describing might be more of a stereotypical corporate type environment, right? With a multilayered organizational leadership hierarchy. I could also represent the experience of female leaders and entrepreneurial roles where, you know, maybe there isn’t a huge team of people around you or maybe, maybe a lot of them are also women, but that there’s still this way of being, this instinctive way of being that might not always be the right thing to do in a business application and, and having to be responsible for so many people, but especially in many entrepreneurial roles, coming into that without competencies in leadership, in management, you know, so many small business people, you know, I mean, I get there, I mean, myself included, and you, like with your therapy practice, coaching practice as a service provider who now wants to have a business that goes and does that without understanding what that even means or how to do it and having to figure things out in real time and make mistakes and fail and have people be disappointed in you and mad at you and for a very relational person. It’s like, yeah, and sometimes I feel like if I, if I care more about those things, like I, you know, my own leadership development, I’ve had the great privilege of working with a number of business coaches over the years, but I’ve really enjoyed working with some of my bail coaches because they’re such this different perspective and I’m always struck by how different the mindset can be, particularly this like tough minded approach where I’m like, yeah. Wow. You know, yeah, kind of shines a light on a relational way of being that maybe isn’t always the best way to handle things in a business environment.

Dr. Natasha: Right. Right. But, but like important to access though, right? Because so actually one of the things that I, I was in a very visible leadership role at my academic job several years ago and it was, you know, it was a great, an amazing growth opportunity, but also my goodness, like just from a leadership standpoint, so you know, challenging. And I would find myself in meetings a lot and I would have, like I was always the student who like, you know, had, had the thought that I wanted to share, but I wouldn’t put my hand up and then someone else would put their hand up and say exactly the same thing that I was going to say. Right. And, and then, you know, it was, and I’ve, so I was sort of having a parallel process and I found myself asking internally, what would a white guy do right now? And it was this way that I.

Dr. Lisa: A little rubber bracelet. What would a white man do right now? He’d be like, yeah, I need that.

Dr. Natasha: Yeah. And it was a way for me to access this way of thinking or being that was not my default, but that I recognized could have potential value if I could just imagine what would a white guy do? And that helps me calibrate and I’d be like, well, me and, you know, it may sound like stereotyping and I guess at some level it is, but it wasn’t something I, you know, always, it wasn’t something I was saying out loud. I just sort of needed to expand my range of options. And that was a way for me to do that. And, you know, just helped me real, like sort of again, like, okay, there’s a spectrum. I find myself here on the spectrum of how to say this one thing or how to deliver this feedback to a team member and I’m feeling kind of locked in. What are my other options? And, you know, and also to your point, you know, some of some of the mentors who I have just, I value so deeply are men and, you know, yeah. And so it’s, it’s, it’s not about, yeah, it’s not like an adversarial thing. It’s more just what are my choices? What are the range of choices and options that I have and how can I access the ones that maybe I didn’t have access to or just my mind just doesn’t go there, you know?

Dr. Lisa: Yes. Yeah. I think that’s, and for the record, so Dr. Natasha and I are united. We think men are great and have, so nothing here is male bashing, but I think it can be a different experience. Although there are so many relational, creative men who have web thinkers. I mean, not, not all men are the same either. Correct. I think empathy and emotional too, all the things, but I will tell you that in my own, you know, leadership roles, I think that my, again, instinctive way of being is seeking to understand and kind of creating space for people to do their own thing. I don’t really want or need to manage other people. I don’t really like telling people what to do, which is really in many ways a deficit for a leader. And it has created problems for me, but then to have a male perspective who is more stereotypical and I’m, you know, perseverating on like, but you know, it’s, it’s going to devastate her if I have to let her go. And he’s like, really shouldn’t be that hard. Right. And like, look at the needs of the business. And that was like, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Like those kinds of things I think are illuminating. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Natasha: I do. And I, and you know, I don’t know if, if when men and women, there’s the phenotypic differences are just so powerful that we will always think in that kind of dichotomous way. I mean, I think when you really drill down underneath it, I think we’re talking about values. I think we’re talking about temperament. I think we’re talking about like relational style and those things are, are genderless. Right. Those aren’t really. And so I actually think that, you know, like that is the, that’s what we’re really talking about. Absolutely. At the same time, you know, who you are and how you present in the world and how other people see you, like that’s also real. Right. And so it’s kind of like we’re sort of trying to straddle those two levels of experience.

Dr. Lisa: Oh my gosh. So true. And to your point, I mean, I know so many like fierce, tough-minded women who are, you know, operating in that way. And again, very like gentle relational men. And, and it’s really, as those individual changes, but to your point, I think, and you said this at an earlier place in our conversation, there are some socially constructed expectations of women. Yes. I think that there can be consequences for women showing up in certain ways. Yes.

Dr. Natasha: Yeah. I mean, gosh, such a good question. And like my mind goes straight to first acknowledging that the context in which we operate has such a, the environment, right? If we think about our individual experience nested within an environment. Like, you know, if you’re, if you’re working in a workplace in the United States, that’s going to be different from a workplace in another country, but like, okay, so let’s just sort of acknowledge all of those system levels. I think, and most of the women that I see in my coaching practice are struggling with some aspect of it. But like the ones, you know, where it’s challenging, I think, I think how that usually shows up is in the form of burnout. Right. Yeah. I think the way that that shows up is often burnout, you know, and statistically we know. I didn’t know that. Yeah. And, and the data for, you know, women of color, 77th of senior level black women reported frequent burnout in 2025. If you’re meeting with a group of 10 leaders, that seven or eight of those women are reporting not just burnout, frequent burnout. Right. And I think for a lot of us, that’s how it shows up. And we, we have our own scripts and beliefs about what it means to be burned out or whether or not we’re allowed to be burned out. Number one, we should not expect this to be easy. Like it’s just not going to be easy.

Dr. Lisa: But then why do we try so hard to get there in the first place?

Dr. Natasha: Right. Because I think what happens is you notice that you’re burned out. You notice that you’re feeling stressed. You look around and you’re like, but so-and-so has managed to figure it out. And so-and-so, I don’t think she is struggling as much on the inside as I am. Or, you know, I’ve always had imposter syndrome. So I’m sure she doesn’t have imposter syndrome. We start to create these narratives that it shouldn’t be this hard. It should feel easier. We should be able to handle it. And I, and so to be just for in a moment to just say, listen, no, this is hard and it is going to probably be hard, maybe less hard. And I really hope that we can find a way for it to not be hard in your specific context. But let’s just allow ourselves to have this be difficult, you know? Because I think like, that’s when you’re like, okay, I’m not right. It’s not that something’s wrong with me. It’s if this is just the reality. And so knowing that, now how do I regroup? You know, and in my, in my, you know, framework, the next step is really to recognize and clarify your values because I think that that is what will help us figure out, okay, I know this decision is going to make this person upset and I really wish that it didn’t, but I know this is the right decision because its values aligned, right? And so then it’s like, now we can have a conversation about is it worth the cost? And that’s coming from an internal place as opposed to an external place.

Dr. Lisa: I mean, like what you’re talking about is that this experience of burnout, so exhaustion, depletion over work, kind of chronic stress, that is the natural energetic destination of being in a role like this with all the complexities and the pressures and the relational differences and the, the, the loneliness, unless you first of all validate it and then start thinking about how you can, you know what I took from the way that you were talking about the step one, like what are your values is beginning to find these anchors of strength or like pillars or compass, like whatever metaphor you want to use, but that it being more internally, like cultivating your trust in yourself. Yes. And is it part of the, is it, well, let me check this out though, that part of the, the burnout experience might then come from being it almost like looking to others for confirmation. Am I doing this right? Is this person mad at me? Am I ruffling feathers? What would a better, what would a better entrepreneur do right now, you know, as opposed to like, no, I know what I’m doing.

Dr. Natasha: Is that it? I think it’s, I think it is some of that. I think it’s both and actually, I think it’s a, it’s a both internal anchoring because no one else can tell you like what your values are or what they should be, right? There’s no such thing. I think each of us has to, but, but we don’t, no one lives in isolation and no one lives in a bubble. So I think it’s both like, what do I care about and what is going to be the main, the direction, right? Not the destination, but the direction of my decision making. And also connecting with others who can also share those, you know, either share those values or help you figure out what values aligned action looks like. Because, you know, I think, I don’t think this is a solo. I don’t think being a woman in leadership is a solo activity. I think it’s ultimately, and I would say this for men too, although stereotypically we don’t think about men building their communities, but also like the male community has sort of existed by default. That’s the status quo. I don’t think it’s a solo sport. I think that we do need to internally anchor, but I also think that we need to cultivate relationships with others, men and women, allies who can help reinforce those values and help us test things out. Because honestly, like some, sometimes you, you find that, Oh, now that I know what my values are, I’m realizing my organization does not value those values. Right? And that’s not, so like, what do you, what do you do then? Like you could keep making decisions that are aligned with your values, but that might come at the cost of your job security. Like that’s a real dilemma and that’s really challenging. So, so I don’t think it’s just about like, I’m going to do my values and I’m going to do me end of story. I think there’s also, right. It’s just not realistic. And it’s probably not like, this is not going to make you a great person to work with either. You know, like I think I spent so much of my career believing and thinking that I was the only one who had these experiences and I was ashamed. And, you know, felt, felt that if I said these fears out loud to other more senior, even women of color leaders, that, that I would be found out as like the one who just couldn’t cut it and then come to realize, you know, after years of unnecessarily striving and trying to be something that I’m not, I finally had the opportunity and took advantage of it to really have some real conversations. And then lo and behold, I’m not, it’s not me, right? But so like, I, it was, I wasn’t going to make it on my own. I think I, I think I knew what my values were, but I still was second guessing myself in the environment. And that’s where I think we need other people and we need to learn. Sometimes we need to learn to how to cultivate those relationships. And that was certainly a learning curve for me when I was younger.

Dr. Lisa: I can so relate to this. I feel, well, really, oh, for the last few years, you know, especially I’ve had the great fortune to meet and become friends with a number of other women who are in entrepreneurial role, world’s owning business. And you know, I can’t even tell you how wonderful it is to have somebody to talk to who really understands what you’re going through. And especially, and this I think is a part that often goes unsaid. I don’t know if this is more prominent in entrepreneurial situations than other like organizational leadership roles, but the level of trauma that we sustain, like the crap that happens, the relational trauma, like all kinds of stuff to be able to just to have people to talk to about these kinds of things who really get it. You know, I had an experience, I think it was this past week, actually, where I was talking to one of my good friends, like it was literally 5 30 in the morning. And she was freaking out because all the stuff just went sideways. And just to be able to be there for her felt great. She would also totally be there for me. But like, we have to have that. Because otherwise, it just like, it’ll burn you down. Yeah. Oh my gosh, I have been there too. I so so then one takeaway, I mean, somebody listening to this right now with tears in her eyes and her eyes like, where are my people? How we’re I mean, I have some thoughts about how I creative relationships. I’m happy to share them. But what what is for you, especially in an environment where there weren’t that many opportunities? Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Natasha: You have the opportunity to work in different places as part of your training. And so, you know, you know, so for me, you know, earlier in my career, right around right before and right after I got licensed, I was fortunate to be working at an organization where there were lots of women. I mean, psychology tends to be mostly women, but in leadership positions too.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Dr. Natasha: So I’ve also been in so so that was a way of just even seeing some role modeling and developing like, okay, you know, learning how to ask people to consider, you know, offering some mentorship. I’ve also worked in in places where that there was a really toxic culture and have sort of trauma bonded with some colleagues in those settings who who are now like on the group chat or, you know, will be the person I text, right? And so that that’s where I found I think, you know, kind of just being I think that’s what that’s the benefit of like validating your story and being like, listen, you’re not alone. Like you don’t have to be afraid to say to look for somebody who may understand those struggles. You know, I I’ve worked with so many men and women in different industries. And I think this this belief that like we’re the only one who’s going through this or we’re going through this because something’s wrong with us. Like not once has that ever been true.

Dr. Lisa: Not once.

Dr. Natasha: Right.

Dr. Lisa: Not. Yeah. And I’ll just say to and now I am speaking as a psychologist, but but I think for high achieving people in general, especially high achieving women, there can also be influences of perfectionism. Or if I show people my flawed self, then I will be judged. And so that that can be such a barrier, I think, to those authentic connections. And I love what you just said, like, no, everybody feels this way. And be the one to approach that and be authentic and create space for an actual connection.

Dr. Natasha: Yes. And if you’re concerned about that, think about ways to find it outside of your organization. Most professions have organizations in their own field. Right. So like, you know, you know, find find out what that is. Maybe it’s an alumni community connected to an institution that you attended. Like if you need the safety of somebody who is not in or connected to your workplace, then you know, think about strategic ways to find a coach and, you know, someone who can really help with leadership development and then even help you know how to build those connections.

Dr. Lisa: You have to. But that’s like our connection where we’re connected through APA Division 13, which is so much fun. But also I started, you know, going to other conferences and training events and just like, you know, I don’t know anybody there. Can I sit with you guys at lunch or just striking up a conversation? And especially if you start showing up at the same places over and over again, it can be as easy as that can really change the experience of leadership. Mm hmm.

Dr. Natasha: Yeah. Yeah. Shouldn’t be a solo sport.

Dr. Lisa: No. And in this final segment, Dr. Natasha, I really wanted to hear your thoughts about this indescribable experience. I think all adults who have heavy duty jobs can experience men, women, other like whatever, especially when you have responsibilities outside of work. You’re a parent, you have kids, you have a house, you have stuff. But that sometimes for women, I think it can feel more intense. And can I just share a personal thing? You. Yeah. So we’re connected as friends as well as colleagues. Yes. And I had the best time. You posted something on LinkedIn not too long ago where you, it was the funniest video post about like, you know, Dr. Natasha, like all buttoned together. And then you kind of panned out in your, was it your family room, your living room, like a bomb went off, there’s like laundry baskets. And I was like, it looks like my house. Amazing. And I liked you so much more. I didn’t think it was possible, but there it was because, you know, and it’s like that, like perfectionism versus the reality. Where it’s like, yes. My God.

Dr. Natasha: Yes. It is a hot mess behind the scenes. Listen, my God.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. But the stress that comes from that, like, I don’t know about you, but I mean, there are days that I would like to leave work by, you know, for 35 and it’s more like six. And feeling like, you know, I actually do have to come and spend a couple hours on a Saturday morning to try to not even get caught up, but just sort of like not get less behind. And you know, a beautiful day I could be playing with my kid and sometimes I’m not, you know, you shared a story about getting, having a work trip planned and there was a really important thing that had to get done. And you’re in the backseat of the car on the way to Napa, like submitted.

Dr. Natasha: It was a girls trip, one that I do, I’ve been doing every year for the past 13 years with a group of friends. And I had, yes, I had a, I had an immovable work deadline and I was tethering to my cell phone in the backseat finishing it.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Like, how do you have a life? And also, I don’t know, do laundry. I have a basement, like I’ve been meaning to clean out my basement for at least a year. And I get to be, I’m just like, I cannot, I can’t. And every time I go downstairs, I’m like, oh my God, I hate this so much.

Dr. Natasha: It’s a bind. I know. I know. And like, listen, I haven’t figured this out. I mean, my daughter’s five, right? Almost six. Pre, pre-child, I had this, you know, completely unrealistic vision that like, I’ll have it figured out by the time she’s three or even earlier we’ll have, you know, no, are you kidding me? Like it has just gotten more unwieldy. So I do not have all the answers. I will tell you my latest coping, my coping mechanisms. I’ll try it. I’ll test it out myself. I have had a basket of unfolded laundry that has been sitting in my bedroom for six weeks. And I, I feel, I feel viscerally uncomfortable. I feel totally ashamed, first of all, just admitting that, but I’m going to put it out there because again, I know I’m not the only one and I dig through it and I find what I need it. And I have thought at times I’m like, maybe if I just donated like 70% of my clothes, I wouldn’t have to fold that many clothes, but like that would also take a lot of time. And by the time I, you know, go through this internal debate in my head, I’ve already lost 45 minutes. So I, I’ve been practicing a lot of acceptance, a lot of just, listen, this is the way it is. I know I’m capable of folding a basket of laundry. That is not the issue. Is I have a million things to do and only, you know, 180 minutes to do them. So what am I going to choose? And it’s not comfortable. There is, there is a level of dissonance that is always there. I think I have just, I have had to relate, you know, change the way that I talk to myself about it. And I’m fortunate, I’m fortunate to have a very active and supportive co-parent in my husband who, you know, are, you know, we have pretty, I think egalitarian gender roles in our, in our household. And I’m so grateful. And that also is helpful. And his temperament is a nice balance to mine. So you know, that has helped me enormously. But and the other thing is, is I do tiny bits, like, you know, I’ll do little bits here and there because sometimes I get stuck in the like, well, if I can’t fold the whole basket, like, you know, well, you know, I have to wait for a time when I can fold them. And it’s like, actually, no, I could fold five pieces of laundry and like, yeah, I can put those away in two minutes. And you know, actually, when I do it, it has a material impact on me. So like, let’s also not knock the light, right, the impact of the small things. So I’ve been playing around with that.

Dr. Lisa: That’s a really good, you know what, I’m going to, because I don’t know about you, but I know this probably applies to everyone who spends a lot of time and energy in their job. But I will walk through my house or through my life and be like, and that’s not done. And that’s a mess. And I didn’t do that. And I haven’t sent in that form. And like, you know, all the different things that haven’t been done. And then I feel like, but to your point to just focus on, these are the things that you are doing. This is the time you have available and do a little bit of the thing that matters most and be willing to maybe let the other stuff go, even though it’s meaningful.

Dr. Natasha: It is, but what’s your other option? Well, your other option, right, is to drive yourself. And then you’re paying the price anyway, right? So it’s like, okay, either I allow this to be and I, you know, get used to that lower level of dissonance, or I beat myself up about this every single time I walk by the unfolded laundry. And I’m just like, you know, and it’s just, no, that doesn’t help anybody. It doesn’t help me. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa: And to, you know, see connections with other people that are in the, again, in the same place. I won’t mention her name. I would want to embarrass her, but I have a personal friend who is at a senior management level, you know, at this huge organization. She’s like flying all over the place. And so our kids are friends. I go over to her, you know, giant house to have play dates and it’s a fricking disaster. And it’s been, you know, it’s so good because I think, like back in the day, I was the person that felt like I needed to like straighten up before people came over. I don’t do that at all anymore. I’m like, yeah, that like piece of dried cucumber on the floor that could just stay because if we’re going to be friends, this is great, the level of acceptance. And so I just, I love going over to her house because it’s like, yeah, total chaos. And and I was like, you know, I feel comfortable with you and it’s also really good because we’re like very spontaneous. Like, what are you doing in 45 minutes? Do you want to do this thing? And I’m like, no, not today. It’s like, okay, moving on. Or sometimes yes. And just like finding people who can sort of vibe with your way of being so that there’s like, yeah, and maybe notice relationships where it feels different. Yeah. Can you speak to that? Are there relationships that you stepped back from with?

Dr. Natasha: It’s a good question. It’s a good question. I stepped back from no, but I think like sort of risked people not wanting to like come over to my house or like people not wanting to, you know, like, or, or just sort of like recognizing like to, to maintain this relationship in the way that it was before is going to require me to do XYZ. And at this stage of my life, XYZ is not happening. So like tolerating the discomfort of that.

Dr. Lisa: I guess that would be the XYZ.

Dr. Natasha: Like, don’t be late. And it’s like, don’t be 30 minutes late, you know, or like, you know, if we make plans, like, you know, don’t cancel at the last minute, like some of the, like, you know, some of the like rigidity, I think. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa: And, or we have to make plans three weeks in advance. Yeah. Those people.

Dr. Natasha: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, you know, if you can’t do it or if you cancel more than once, like our friendship is in crisis or in jeopardy. And like, we need to figure that out. And I guess like, as I’m saying these things out loud, I mean, these are unreasonable, unreasonable expectations. But I do think there’s a level at which like, to our earlier point about finding others who can support you, I do think that’s, you know, honestly, like before I had kids, I didn’t know anything about anything. And I had no idea like how freaking hard it is. And I wish I had more empathy for my friends who were parents at the time. And so I also try to remind myself of that, that like, listen, you don’t know what you don’t know. But also like, sorry, like, I’m not gonna, I don’t sweep my floor as nearly as much as I need to. And that’s just the reality. So if you don’t want to come over and get it, but like, I’m not gonna sweep my floor today. Word. I’m not gonna sweep my floor today.

Dr. Lisa: This is such a, such a validated conversation. I love everything about this. But then this has been such a good time, by the way. But before we let you go, Dr. Natasha, I mean, you’re also really working with women in leadership positions. And I think one of the things that I love about your message is yes, to validate this is actually really hard. We need connection. We also need to be around people who get us and that we can move into a space of acceptance, right? And are there also other ideas or strategies that you’ve seen can help women in leadership positions actually enjoy their, their role more and have an easier time of it, you know, beyond the emotional parts that I think we’ve been focusing on. And I will also say this is a huge question and you spend months and months and months working with people as an executive leadership coach. I’m hosting groups around it. I know that you have a lot of resources that you can share with people. So I, I know this is a big question, but even one strategy.

Dr. Natasha: Sure. Sure. Gosh, you asked me to pick just one now. I’m like, well, your top three favorite, like what’s the best one?

Dr. Lisa: What’s the best one though?

Dr. Natasha: I hear you. Yeah, but there it is. Give me a mediocre one. And I’m sure it’ll be great. I mean, I’ll tell you what I have. I have, it’s in my desk drawer. So I am a, I take a lot, I take small, small, frequent impactful breaks. So what that looks like is I have like one of those Nido things here, right? I have like five of these. I have them in my car. I have them in my desk. I have them in my work office. This is my home office. And so if I’m noticing that I’m getting keyed up, I will walk away from the computer and I will grab something tactile. So for me, it’s like, it’s this, right? So I’ll like, I’ll sit down in a comfortable chair and I will close my eyes and I will just do this five minutes. That’s it. And it’s like a physical biological reset, right? My system resets. And so I’ll do something like that, one mediocre one. And then the last thing I’ll mention is I have, I have a folder that called encouragement in my email inbox. And I will, anytime I receive an email, personal or professional, that is affirming or really affirms my contributions or the impact that I’m having, I put them in that folder and I will sometimes go back to it. And I will read a few because sometimes I need to be reminded that like, listen, it might be invisible. It might be unappreciated, but like the work I do has an impact and it’s real. I’m not just making it up in my head. So I go to my encouragement folder.

Dr. Lisa: I look for ways to like physically decompress it. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Natasha: Now don’t put pressure on yourself to do it. Right. Real quick. I actually, I have a list. I have a, I’m also the kind of person when you’re in the moment and you’re stressed out, you don’t have time to think, you don’t have time to make another decision to figure out what’s the perfect thing to do. So I have a list of 50 five-minute strategies to manage burnout during your workday or your home day, whatever it is. Go to dr-natasha.com/lhspod. So it’s D, it’s the letters D-R, hyphen, N-A-T-A-S-H-A dot com slash lhspod. And you can download the free 50 ways to stop burnout list.

Dr. Lisa: Five minutes. dr-natasha.com/lhspod. Thank you so much for putting that together because like, you know, leadership skills, competencies, business acumen, these are all things that can be learned. And there are all these other layers of mental and emotional management that need to happen or else you can’t do it. And even just to have some simple ways to calm down, create some space, get recentered, make so much impact and get us the strength to keep going as well as conversations like this with other women.

Dr. Natasha: This was so fun. I’ve been looking forward to this. And thank you again for having me and I love talking to you about all the things.

Dr. Lisa: So likewise. Well, thank you for letting us have this conversation in the presence of our other friends, other other women in leadership positions who need this type of energy in their lives. And so you guys, I’m so glad that you connected with Dr. Natasha and I today. I hope you keep in touch with both of us. You can track us down on LinkedIn if you want to be friends with us, first of all, and also that you found some strategies, but also motivation to begin building some relationships like this in your own life. If you need more because we need each other. Mm-hmm. That’s right. Good. That’s right. Thanks, Dr. Lisa. This was so good.