How to Make Friends as an Adult (Without Becoming an Extrovert)
with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, PhD, LP, LMFT, BCC and Dr. Suzanne Wallach, PsyD, LMFT, psychologist, marriage and family therapist, and founder of SoCal DBT in Los Angeles
You Don’t Have to Become an Extrovert to Have Friends.
Making friends as an adult is two kinds of work: the outside work of showing up to the same thing again and again, and the inside work of tolerating how awkward that feels at first.
You want more friends. Real ones, the kind you could text on a random Tuesday night. And if you are honest, the work of making them sounds exhausting, which is usually the moment people start quietly wondering whether the problem is them.
My guest is Dr. Suzanne Wallach, a psychologist and licensed marriage and family therapist, and the founder of SoCal DBT in Los Angeles. Suzanne and I have very similar training and very different wiring. I am the one who will happily chat up the stranger on the next bar stool. She is somewhere in the middle and very done with people after a long day of sessions. What came out of that contrast is a middle path I think a lot of you are going to find freeing.
We got into why so many of the places that used to hand us friends have quietly disappeared, why repetition beats charisma, the ballet class that gave Suzanne some of her closest friendships, the permission to show up somewhere and not talk to anybody, what to do when you want friends and dread the effort, how much extroversion you can actually handle, why being okay on your own changes who you let close, and the friendship skills most of us were never taught.
“It is about being weird and finding your specific genre of weirdo.” — Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, PhD, LP, LMFT, BCC
Moments from this episode
Episode transcript
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Here’s an uncomfortable truth for a lot of people. I think we all desire to have more friends and a active social circle, healthy relationships with people who love us, but don’t actually love the work that it takes to cultivate that beautiful social garden.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: People are always searching for a place to belong and feel understood and have community and feel accepted.
I think the challenge is that, like, a lot of modern communities are built around status rather than, like, a genuine connection.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Well, the good thing is that there’s actually a middle path, and you do not have to turn into the life-of-the-party extrovert in order to have more healthy connections in your life.
And by the end of today’s episode, you’re going to get some new visibility in how to make good, new friends as an adult, not just in what you do on the outside in the world connecting with people, but also the work that needs to happen on the inside in order to get you where you wanna go, to a more vibrant life with better connections.
My guest today talking with us about this and sharing her expertise is none other than Dr. Suzanne Wallach. She’s the founder of SoCal DBT. She has been a guest on Call Her Daddy and She MD, and now she’s here today on Love, Happiness, and Success to share her perspective with us. Dr. Suzanne, as a psychologist, a marriage and family therapist, so excited to hear your perspective.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Thank you for having me.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yay. So what I love about you and your work, so we, we, w- we were just chatting before we, we started, uh, recording this, that we have a similar background. You have a doctorate in psychology, clinical psychology, but you’re also a marriage and family therapist, which I think is an interesting blend of understanding, you know, clinical and, and, and mental health and development but with the systemic relational pieces that, that can sometimes get missed.
So- Well, yeah …
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: yeah. Thank you.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: And so I’d love to hear just a little bit more, uh, your thoughts around why so many people are so lonely right now, and just, you know, especially adults, it can be such a struggle to build a beautiful garden of meaningful friendships from acquaintances to besties. What is getting in the way?
And don’t just say social media.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Well, I was- …
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: gonna say social media. Um- Okay, you can say social media. It’s true. It’s part of the equation. It
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: is true. I mean, I, I do think the number one thing is that people are spending too much time on, on their electronics, and so- The world now has, I mean, we just live in a different world.
Like, I don’t know how old you are, but I’m 49, and so I can remember a world where you had to, you know, you had to actually interact with people in order
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: to, you know- Ring the doorbell. Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: You- Like somebody,
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: without calling.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: You had to call people. You had to, like, go outside and interact with people in order…
You know, and so people are constantly now in, you know, it- you don’t even have to go to the grocery store anymore. You know, it’s funny, my dad will come to visit and he’s like, “My dry cleaning gets picked up and delivered. The groceries get delivered.” Like, you know, I- I mean, he’s just like, “You, you don’t, you never leave the house for anything.”
Like it’s, he thinks I’m crazy. And I’m like, “I, I actually haven’t been to a grocery store since COVID.” Like, I just don’t go anymore. Um, so you know, I think that’s, that’s one thing. But I do notice a lot of my, my patients talk a lot about feeling loneliness, especially when it comes to, especially females, um, when it comes to forming friendships.
Mm-hmm. And I don’t know if that’s just something that specifically is about… ‘Cause sometimes I do think it’s about, I, we’re in Los Angeles, and I think Los Angeles is a big city, and it is a city that’s hard, can be harder to make friends in. But I think that COVID had a lot to do with it because people became really isolated during COVID, and a lot of friendships fizzled out, and a lot of people, you know, moved, and a lot of people became more isolated during COVID.
And then work also became hybrid, right? Which used to be a huge place where, I mean, I remember like in my 20s, work was where I met all my friends.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Y- yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: I mean, tho- those were, that was like my crew. Like I got, I went to work, and that was where I met people, and we all went out together and, and so work has also become hybrid, and so a lot of people are work from home now.
And so I just think there’s been this kind of perfect storm between social media and between COVID, and then also the world has just become so much more polarized in a lot of different ways, politically and other ways, that- It has contributed to people feeling, you know, a lot more isolated.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: No, the- these are all good, good points and, and you know that, that over the last five, five, six years, however long it’s been, the, the trend is that people are really becoming like untethered from other humans.
Like, we, we don’t need them anymore, right? A- and do I, I don’t need to talk to anybody to get my groceries or whatnot, right? So there’s that part, but also the ability to, you know, stay connected through these little screens that are not the same, and combined with people starting to feel strange and awkward around other people because they don’t practice as much.
Mm-hmm. But also in a world where people are getting stranger and more dangerous when we do go outside, that there’s a lot of reasons to be like, “No, I’m done.” Um, but, but you think that that’s compounding this impact of feeling lonely, but that it’s, it’s threatening in a lot of ways, and, and we’re out of practice, and do we really need to?
It’s kind of easy to avoid. Yeah, I mean, the world is…
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Well, at least in my opinion, I mean, it’s scarier than, than it was, I mean, I think pre-COVID. And also, I mean, you know, we can’t forget about AI. Like, I c- and again, I mean, maybe it’s a generational thing, but like, it really just blows my mind that people are like, “Oh, when I get lonely, I just talk to…”
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah, Claude can be an excellent conversationalist- Yeah, or like- … and he always laughs at my jokes. Like … GPT.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: No, my ChatGPT has a name. I’m like- Yeah … I just talk to her. I sit, and I, and I’m, and you know, I’m like, “W- oh my gosh.” So like, you know, it- I mean, that’s terrifying to me. Um, you know, ’cause you know, you’re, you’re talking to an agent that is actually taught to speak to you in the wa- in a way that reinforces like everything you’re saying.
And you know, people are even going to ChatGPT now, I’m sure as you know, for therapy, which is even more terrifying.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: And- I’m sorry. You have, we have to do this. Therapy. Okay, thank you.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah. Because it’s not therapy because AI is taught to reinforce everything that you’re saying. Um, and so they’re not really giving you therapy, and they don’t know the license, uh, they don’t know the laws and the ethics of each state, and so I could go on and on about that.
But I also think, yeah, AI has also entered the picture. And so, right, and I think, I mean- Yeah, it is, it is a kind of a scarier, more polarized world than it used to be. I don’t think people feel as safe with other people.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Well, and I think that I’ve, I’ve heard you say elsewhere, and I thought this was so interesting, and, and this is one of the things that I was excited to talk with you more about, you know, that this idea, right, that, that, that, um, relationships can be so fraught for sure, and that this is being amplified for so many reasons just because societal structural things, and that a lot of the old spaces where we used to go for friendship, it could be, you know, a, a church, a workplace to your point, running around your neighborhood, bowling, bowling leagues used to be a thing, right?
Um, like those are just eroding, and that one place that can feel safer and more accessible in some ways are actually these, these like clubs, these organizations, you know, like a, a fancy supper club or a, some type of organized thing that has a membership fee, and there’s like an application, you know. So can you talk a little bit about what you’ve observed happening in that space, and how it seems like it is meet- meeting a need or, or is it?
I mean, because I could also see that coming with a different set of problems you
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: mentioned myself. Yeah. I
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: mean,
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: well, I think like fundamentally humans just like are wired for like that feeling of belonging.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Um, and I mean, just evolutionar- or, well, evolution-wise, if, I don’t know if that’s the right way to, to say it, but being part of a group, right, if we look back, back to, you know, by, like back to caveman years, like being part of a group in- increased our chances of survival.
So we’re wired to want to be part of a group and to be part of a pack. And so that same like biological need hasn’t disappeared in 2026. It just kind of presents itself differently. So- Hmm … whether it is a book club, a running club, you know, a fitness community, a ballet class, um, or an exclusive beach house in, you know, um, Malibu, I think people are always searching for a place to belong and feel understood and have community and feel accepted.
I think the challenge is that like a lot of modern communities are built around status rather than like a genuine connection. So- You know, some people can end up kind of on the outs or not being able to get in. Um, so I try to encourage people to do things more that are, you know, sort of free, like maybe like a book club or affordable, like, you know, a running club or things like that instead of, unless you can afford it, something that has a very expensive membership or that, you know, is a status symbol.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah. No, I, I could s- I mean, I, you know, have heard this is not part of my life at all, but that- Mm-hmm … you know, even just to join a country club, it can be hundreds of hun- with S’s, hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know, just as a basic entry level if you’re in. Yeah. Uh, then you have to pay like … And I mean, it’s ridiculous, but
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: A- and you’re saying that there are other ways to start to get a similar experience, right? To, to join a club. But what, what do you think it is about joining something that is easier for people than i- in the wild encounters with potential new friends?
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: I mean, I don’t know if I think it’s easier. I think it depends on your personality.
Mm. I sometimes think joining something to some people can feel a lot more intimidating.
But I do think if you h- if you … ‘Cause some people are like, “I don’t know what to join. Like, I don’t like running. I don’t like this.” But I do think if you have something you like, like I remember … I always use ballet as an example because, like, I did ballet from the time I was three until I was, like, 19, and then- Oh
I went back, um, in my early 30s- Mm … and ended up, like, going back, I mean, almost literally seven days a week. And those actually ended up being all of my … They became all of my best girlfriends that- Oh … ended up, like some of them were in my wedding, and I, I still am in touch with some of them and I still take ballet, you know, to this day.
And I’m 49 now. So, um, you know, I still try to go, like two or three times a week. So, and it has enriched my life in ways, like, I just couldn’t even begin- Mm … to talk about, to just … And they’re still in class with me, and, like, we’ve now been friends for, you know, over 10 years. And, and so I think having that community has- Enriched my life so much that it is something I really encourage people to do.
Yeah. Like, if you can find, if there’s a language you wanna learn or, you know, I have a patient who just joined a book club because she was so into reading, and she’s really enjoying that. Um, and she’s in her late 20s.
and she’d moved to a new city, and like that was kind of her way to try to meet people was to join a book club.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Um, and so I think if you’re someone who is not intimidated by going into a room where you don’t know anyone or going into a room like, you know, in ballet, like I hadn’t been in ballet in forever and I definitely wasn’t gonna be-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Wearing tights … the best at it. And that’s it.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: And I
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: got really- Yeah, no pants.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Um, then, then that can be, you know, ’cause you, you kinda have to like use some, what in DBT we would call opposite action to fear- Mm-hmm … to walk into a room where you know, know nobody. But I think that that can be really great because you can meet a bunch of people at once. You know, I have another patient I’m thinking of that started taking painting classes and, you know, because I think if you can meet people with common interests-
that, that’s really where it’s at. Like you’re going, if you’re, you know, if you love to paint and you go to a painting class, you’re probably gonna meet like-minded people.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Well, and, and I’m also thinking as you’re talking, I mean, the, the proximity and repetition is a big part of how relationships organically are formed.
I mean, there’s a reason why everybody’s best friend when they were a kid lived next door to you is because that is the specific kid that you saw every day, that was at the bus stop that you walked home with, right? And so, and so just to put yourself in an environment where you have the contact with people, there’s that familiarity.
I, I also love what you’re saying though and like so, so many of these things, like you could totally go to places and not have to talk to anybody. I mean, you know, I started, a- and this is not because I am a deep lover of fitness in particular, but it is now a survival strategy at this point in my life.
Like I will absolutely die if I don’t go to fitness classes. I recently signed up for- Oh, yeah … Pilate- Pilates. Well, I, and there’s like, you know, nice people. You say hi, but I don’t necessarily need to talk to any of those people, largely women, but I could, right? And so there’s that optionality that, that might feel safer too.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah. I mean, I definitely think in exercise classes there is. I’m thinking actually of a patient of mine that like she goes to Pilates and like Like, she has made friends with, like, some of the women there. Mm-hmm. But, like, sometimes she goes and she doesn’t talk to anyone, and she- Yeah … can just leave.
Right. And then sometimes she goes, and sometimes she’ll go get coffee.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: You know?
Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: After. She has the option. Um- Mm-hmm … but through repetition and going every week- Mm … at the same time, you- it’s just inevitable that you will get to know people. Mm-hmm. You know? Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah …
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: through that repetition, you’re, you’re bound to meet someone. Someone will talk to you at some point.
I mean, it’s easier if you walk up and talk to another person, but not everybody is comfortable doing that. Yeah. But some people- And that’s okay- … eventually … ’cause some people are quite weird, and- … you know, there’s, may or may not be a good experience.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: How to establish healthy new friendships at, at a community as an adult, and some of the reasons why this can feel hard.
What the experience is like for someone listening who might be genuinely ambivalent. They like the idea of having more relationships, but they just kinda, like, want new ready-to-go best friends who love them and would do anything for them, uh, but have a lot of ambivalence about all of the microsteps and pitfalls involved in actually establishing that, like growing the garden, ’cause it really is.
Action is required typically.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah. I mean, I mean, the radical, like, genuine truth is that, like, ready-to-go, like, you know, just add water best friends, like, don’t exist.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: No.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Right? So, um- Except for Claude. I mean, just saying. Right. Unless you are, you know, using ChatGPT, remember my name, they will be your new best friend.
I think you have to really, like, check the facts on that one. Like, I mean, yes, that would be great if they would just pop up out of nowhere and you could have very deep, meaningful relationships, and I don’t, I don’t think those exist. Like, y- action is required. Mm-hmm. You have to leave your house. You have to- Yeah
meet people. And it does require effort on both people’s parts. And so if you’re not someone who’s super extroverted or who is feeling ambivalence, I guess what I would say is have some curiosity about your ambivalence. Mm-hmm. And goal is I really wanna have close friends, but there’s this sort of like dialectic of like I wanna have close friends and I don’t wanna take the action to do it.
I would be curious about, like, what is stopping you and- Mm … why? Because if the goal is I wanna have close friends, like, what are the behaviors you need to engage in to do
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: that? Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: You know? And what’s getting in the way? Right. And if you don’t wanna engage in those behaviors, then in DBT, we would sort of focus on, well, what’s getting in the way of you engaging in those behaviors?
Is it fear? Is it, you know, is it shame? Is it… And then we would try to get you to take, like, opposite action to those things. Mm-hmm. So opposite action to fear might just be like, hey, like, today, maybe just, like, go get a coffee at Starbucks and say hi to someone. Or, you know, or it might just be, like, sending a text message to an old friend and being like- Mm
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: “Hey, how are you doing? I’ve been thinking of you.” There’s very simple steps we can take to reconnecting with old friends, too. It doesn’t have to be new ones.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah. And that can be easier sometimes, too.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: A lot of times.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah. We were sharing that we are probably good examples, both of us, of just differences in fundamental wiring when it comes to an interest in talking to strangers, right?
Like I don’t, I don’t know about you, but I, I probably identify more on the extroverted side of the, the equation. You know, like I, I have weird hobbies. I, I wanna sit at the bar and I’m like, “Hi,” you know, like talking to people on each side, and I just, I, I, I love that. It’s fun for me. My husband, though, he’s like, “Why would I talk to anybody,” right?
You know, like, I mean, and there are real differences, and those tend to be pretty stable, right? They’re part of the big five personality traits, this introversion-extroversion continuum, and how it’s okay to handle this differently based on who you are and not feel like you have to force yourself to show up in the world in a way that is really fundamentally incongruent to your natural wiring.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Oh, 100%. Yeah. I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, I’m kind of like, I would consider myself like I can go either way. Like, there are times when I, like, have no interest in speaking to strangers, and then there are times when, like, if someone interests me, I will talk their ear off. And j- my husband talks to everyone.
Like, I mean, he, he knows every single one of our neighbors and how to talk to a stranger at the grocery store and, like… You know, I’m, I’m not that person, especially if I’ve been at work all day talking. Yeah. But, um- Yes … but I definitely, like, if I wanna get to know someone and find someone interesting, like, I have no problem walking up to strangers and talking to them and being like, “I wanna be friends with this person.”
But I al- so in that way, I’m, I don’t have a problem being extroverted. Um, I don’t have a problem walking into, like, a party by myself where I know no one or things like that. But I do think if you push yourself to do things or try to become something you aren’t comfortable with, if you’re an introvert who is saying like, “I inherently want to be an extrovert,” that’s just gonna create anxiety and prob- Mm
probably gonna make you feel bad about yourself. I think you have to be mindful of, well, if I’m inherently an introvert, like that’s actually okay. What we have to figure out is how much extroversion can I handle? Mm. Maybe, you know, and now they have this new term for like ambiverts, I, I think that’s what the term is, where it’s like a person who’s like kind of an introvert and kind of an extrovert, but they just have their social battery runs low- Mm-hmm
really quick. And so I have a client that, you know, it’s funny, we were talking about this just a couple weeks ago, where she’s become – we’ve talked about working on mindfulness in her body, of really noticing when she’s out, like when her social battery runs out, she’s like, “I gotta go home.” You know, instead of forcing herself to stay out and then being mentally exhausted for two days afterwards and feeling like she just doesn’t wanna talk to anyone.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Um, so that she really knows that by a certain time, it’s time for her to leave. She’s had enough of people. And you know, and in that way, she’s taking care of herself. Mm-hmm. She’s gotten out of the house. She’s like charged her social battery, and then she goes home. Right. And so I think a lot of it also is just like genuinely kind of accepting, okay, well, I’m an introvert, and there’s nothing w- wrong with that.
I mean, there’s a lot of great things I think about being an introvert. It means you’re like you’re able to sit with yourself. It means you’re good with being alone. I mean, a lot of people are totally incapable of that. I mean, being able to be by yourself and sit with yourself is a really important quality.
So I think there’s a lot of great qualities to people who are introverts.
you know? That’s so important. It is. Why? It’s really important to be able to sit with self and to be able to be alone, and that’s something a lot of people can’t tolerate.
I have to work on a lot with people in therapy. They can’t tolerate being alone for even 20 minutes.
H-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: how does that become a, a strength if somebody develops that ability? What does it, um, what does it support?
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: I mean, the ability to be alone I think supports a lot of things because I mean, I think if you’re a person who constantly needs to be moving and constantly needs to be entertained and like often can’t sit still because maybe you have trauma or you don’t wanna sit with your feelings or you don’t wanna – you’re kind of like the person, you can’t hit a moving target is kind of what I always call it.
Those are often people who are like workaholics or, you know, they constantly have to be in a relationship or they constantly they- they’re alwa- they always have to be occupied by something. And then when they stop, their feelings kind of hit the- Mm … bottom of the bricks. Yeah. And so I’m thinking of a couple people that I know that, um, if they heard this, they would know who I they would know who I’m thinking of, that I’m always kind of like-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: All right.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Well, because you’re, you’re saying that when there’s that kind of frenetic, like da, da, da, da, right? It, it, it leads to this disconnection with the self that is not good for anyone, that, that we become disengaged from our own-
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah. I think you wanna find, the idea, right, is always to find the middle, to find the gray- Yeah
of like, I wanna be able to be around other people and be social, and I also wanna be able to, like, sit with myself- Yeah … even if I’m in distress, or even if I’m thinking about uncomfortable things, and manage it, and stay regulated, or- Be able to cry or be able to have anxiety or be able to be angry- Mm-hmm
and, and be alone with it and not need to be rescued, not need, you know, someone else to like th- be there to regulate me. Like there has to be this sort of like middle path that we walk where like we can do both.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Absolutely. Oh, as you’re talking I’m just, I’m thinking of, um, I, I, uh, had the great fortune to work with a very powerful clinical supervisor at one time and, and she said something like that.
She was like, “You know, m- most of the problems in the world are caused by people’s inability to tolerate their own feelings.”
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Gosh.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Right? And, and so the goal here is not to make the feelings go away, it’s to like feel them, we’re all all right. ‘Cause it’s when people start trying to get away from their feelings, that’s when things go sideways in some form or fashion, right?
Yeah. We start avoiding all kinds of problems.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: I always tell people, you know, ’cause in DBT we teach skills, and so like we have our patients that are like, “They’re not working.” And I’m like, “Th- they’re not there to make the feelings go away. Like, they’re not there to make you feel better. They’re there- Right
we’re there to like de-escalate you so you don’t make things worse.” Mm-hmm. Right? Like, they’re not… The skills aren’t gonna make you feel better, like you’re saying. Yeah, nobody wants to hear that though, Doctor
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Suzanne. Yeah. They’re like, “
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: But I- They’re
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: like … I signed up to…” Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Like, yeah. No, they don’t want to hear that.
They get really upset. Yeah. You know? And it’s like, “Why am I doing this if I’m not gonna feel better?” It’s like, well, if you’re going through a breakup, you’re gonna feel sad. If you’re going- Mm-hmm … if, you know, you just got in a fight with someone, you’re gonna feel angry. Like-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah …
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: it’s about tolerating your feelings and, and also sometimes being able to validate your feelings.
Mm. Or, or sitting with your feelings until you realize like, oh, maybe I, maybe I did something wrong and I need to apologize for it.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Right.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Or, you know, but yeah, it is about like what your supervisor said, which is I think a really… It’s something I’m trying to teach my seven-year-old right now, right? Of like, I get it that you’re really angry, and you just have to- Cannot throw the chair out the window.
Yeah. Right. Like just, you just can’t. You know, you can’t scream at me. Um- Mm-hmm … you can’t kick me. We just went through that the other day. Like- Yeah … you’re not allowed to kick me when you’re angry. Like if you do that, I’m not gonna wanna talk to you. Um, and you know, I think, yeah, so being able to sit with self is a really important lesson-
that-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Absolutely …
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: you know, if you’re not taught as a child, you have to learn as an adult.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Mm. Well, and, and directly correlated to, you know, with like how, how do we have healthy relationships? Because, I mean, in some ways, you know, you, you can get a lot of people to hang out with you, but what I, what I’ve seen, and I’m sure you’ve noticed this in your practice as well, is that, um, people who are like trying to do something besides like sit with their feelings can often get into relationships or stay in relationships that are, like, objectively not good relationships, but, like, just that connection, that distraction, that, like, somebody else in their space is preferential to this, like, void or the, the- Big hole
you know, big black hole of feelings. Like, this is still better, even if it’s awful. And so we, we need to be able to do that so that we don’t start making connections with weird people, you know? Like, I don’t… Right? So all kinds of stuff.
Mm-hmm. Well, and, and you know what, just, just for the benefit of anybody listening to, to this conversation who might be stuck in some of those patterns, you know, one of my very favorite things w- about getting to do this podcast is just having the opportunity to talk to so many interesting people, such as yourself.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: This is reminding me, though, of a conversation I had, um, with our, our colleague, uh, psychologist Marisa Franco, who is just releasing a new book called Worthy, I believe is the title. It’s so interesting, and what her research uncovered that I hadn’t thought about before, but it’s like, yeah, is that when people have, um, attachment injuries or when they have a lot of historical experiences of being traumatized by humans in relationships, they actually feel uncomfortable when people are nice to them or in healthy situations, and it feels much, much more congruent and like it’s a better match for how they feel on the inside to be in toxic relationships with people who are mean to them.
And so th- this is also a great point, you know, for what you’re saying, is that to, to have truly healthy relationships with others, it actually starts on the inside, and that’s the big takeaway from what I’m hearing you say, too.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah, I mean, I wrote my dissertation on romantic partner selection. Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. And go figure, ’cause at the time I was going through all of this. We, we do our own work through our work, don’t we? Yeah. I mean, we do. Uh, yeah, and, and r- repetition compulsion within romantic partner selection. And, um, and yes, um, a 100%, like it, you, your attachment style, it like determines who you pick.
And if you don’t feel worthy, right, water seeks its own level.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: And so- Yeah, I was picking people who were just, like, in the same place that I was in.
Um, and I was as, as toxic as they were. Um, I can’t imagine, you know, now. Like, I mean, my husband and I have never been in any of the situations like th- Mm
like I was in then. But there also wasn’t, you know, any of the same kind of situations involved. So I think, uh, she’s right. You know, and I think attachment, attachment work is, like, outside of DBT, like, one of the things that I work-
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah …
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: with a lot. And- Yeah … and it all, it goes back to family of origin stuff.
I mean, you look at what’s modeled for you, and you kind of repeat that when you grow up. Mm. It builds what, you know, you s- you seek what you know.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah, powerful stuff. As promised, now we’re going to turn our attention to some of the actionable ideas, things to do differently, maybe even other resources that you might consider if you’re getting to a place in your own life where that balance point, I am tired of being lonely, is starting to outweigh the comfort zone, and you’re thinking about doing something differently.
Yeah. So yeah, Dr. Suzanne.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: I mean, I think like we talked about, I mean, you can always think about joining things. Mm-hmm. You can always think about reaching out. I think finding a coach or finding a therapist is always- Mm … a good idea. Um, I mean, they’re very different, but I think if you don’t feel like you need therapy, I think coaches can be very helpful if you find- Yeah
the right one, like, as far as motivating you and helping you, like, solve whatever is challenging you and kind of like, they can, they can do the kind of on-the-ground work that a therapist can’t do in an office. And I think, you know, that’s just depending on what your goals are. But I also think, you know, just being curious about, like, okay, well, what are my goals and what behaviors are getting in the way, and how do I challenge those behaviors?
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Hmm. Always good advice. Um, another, another quick plug. I, I don’t know if, um, you’ve come across this in your own work, but I am such a huge fan of the PEERS program coming out of UCLA, their- Oh … their medical school. So PEERS, you guys can look it up online, P-E-E-R-S, and they are using a really interesting coaching model to help primarily younger people, but the ideas are appropriate for anyone, on making and keeping friends.
And what’s really cool, um, is that they’re, uh, they’re talking about, like, how to do micro skills that no one overtly teaches you. And so I was first exposed to this because, as you mentioned, coming out of the pandemic, you know, we had adolescents, you know, a kid, a pandemic started when they were 11, and now they’re 14, and they’re like, “I Do not know how to talk to humans because I’ve been playing video games for the last three years, right?
And so then how, how to teach some of these skills and going into like how do you walk up to somebody you’re interested in talking to and starting a conversation without being a weirdo? How do you walk up to two people or a group of people who are talking to each other and enter that? And here’s things to look for.
Do people wanna talk to you or not? But like it, in a very broken down way that makes- Mm-hmm … things that can feel hard or mysterious, like decoded. And this is important too, if you are struggling with social anxiety, because there, there’s this… The hard thing about social anxiety is that if you have been avoiding people and you’re out of practice and, and nobody has taught you how to handle these situations, sometimes when you do try to talk to people, they might experience you as being a little bit off, and then that can reinforce this fear and anxiety that you have.
Right. And so, you know, taking the time to figure out, okay, so how do people who are good at this actually operate? So the PEERS program might be one, and there are a number of different, um, you know, self-help books, workbooks that kind of break down the skills, and I think that can be a really helpful strategy ’cause for a lot of people, like it’s more than just showing up to a, a class or an event.
It’s like, how, how do I- Oh … do that? Yeah. Mm-hmm. I- i- if that makes sense.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah, I agree. I l- I love the PEERS program.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: So good. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, hey, you’re in Los Angeles. Yeah. They’re like right down the road from you.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I’ve kn- I, I know a lot of people who have done it. It’s a great- Yeah … program especially, I mean, it’s great for y- for younger people, but like, like you said, I mean, the skills can apply to anyone.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And so there’s also a lot of coming out of the DBT world. I mean, one of the facets is how do we, uh, have positive or, or healthier interactions with people, right? Because, uh, as we know, when people have big emotions and, uh, flooding and expressions of anger, that- Yeah … that can get in the way. So what are some of the things that you might, uh, draw from that science?
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Well, I mean, so in DBT we teach skills in four different modules. So we teach mindfulness, which is not like really zen mindfulness. It’s, um, mindfulness of what’s going on in our environment and what’s happening in our bodies so that we’re always aware of what the environment or what, how the environment is affecting us and what warning signs our body is giving us about what we might be feeling.
Um, emotion regulation, distress tolerance, and interpersonal effectiveness. Um- Interpersonal effectiveness, that’s right. I was trying to think, what, what do they call that at DBT? Yeah. Interpersonal effectiveness. Interpersonal effectiveness is where we’re really focusing on relationship, um, reactivation and relationship effectiveness.
How do you, how do you keep relationships and how do you also maintain your self-respect- Mm. Mm-hmm … in relationships and get what you want out of relationships but also not be a doormat in relationships? Mm-hmm. And so, you know, a lot of that is, you know, trying to figure out, which I think is hard for some people, like when do I take no for an answer?
Mm-hmm. When do I push a little harder? Like when do I use a gentle or easy manner? When do I- Yeah … when do I like put my self-respect before, and my values before the other person’s wants and needs? Like when do I? And so there are different skills we use to help teach people like when to use which skill- Mm-hmm
and in what situation. Uh, because obviously if you’re in a situation with your boss, for example, there are different skills that you need to use than if you’re in a situation with your sister. Um, and if you’re someone who g- gets emotionally dysregulated and maybe struggles with anger, you really have to use different situ- or different skills- Mm-hmm
at work than you would maybe with your family.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Right.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Um, so that you don’t get fired or you don’t get in trouble at work. Mm-hmm. Um, so it’s really about like, you know, we try to teach too like, you know, you can use these different skills in different places. And, and we also teach people like you use them based on your distress level.
Like interpersonal- Mm … effectiveness skills on a distress scale in DBT of one to 10, you can’t use unless you’re between a one and a three.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Sure.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: You just can’t, ’cause your prefrontal cortex isn’t working. So you can’t- Yeah … like problem solve or- Right … have a conversation with somebody if, if your distress is at a 10.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Um, so but DBT skills in general I think, I mean I really think the whole world should have to take a course in DBT. I know I’m biased. Yeah. But it’s helped my life so much over the 14 years I’ve been doing it. Like I use DBT skills all day. You know? I mean, absolutely. And use your soft skill. Or Suzanne, like- Mm-hmm You know, I’m, if I’m being a keyboard warrior, just like, “Suzanne, use opposite action to anger,” or like, you know, with…
I use it, I use it with my husband all the time.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: So good. Yeah. Like, and, and you know what? The, I mean, so, so DBT and, and I, I could see people being like, “Oh,” you know, ’cause those, those can be the big guns. And the active ingredients, though, you can find in, in other places as well, you know?
Um, emotional intelligence coaching, right, is, is part of that self-management. Uh, the communication skills, uh, that, that come, the interpersonal effectiveness, the self-awareness, uh, through mindfulness or, you know, somatic experiencing. I mean, th- there are places that you can pull these things together and they, they work.
And so DBT is just this lovely combination where people are experiencing this to a, an intense degree, where you get that, that whole package. Uh, a- and that’s a beautiful thing. It’s a great model.
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: I mean, there are a lot of places where people are, I mean, taught- Yeah … on YouTube, you know?
Um, and or you can just go take… You don’t have to take a whole program. You can just go take- Yeah … these skills
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: groups. There are workbooks. Yeah, I mean-
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Workbooks. Like, like there’s even, you know, um, Blaise Aguirre wrote DBT Skills for Dummies, which is a great book actually. Great. Um, but I mean, yeah, there, if you, I mean, Mar- there’s videos of Marsha Linehan teaching the DBT skills on YouTube.
Amazing. You know? Yeah. Which is amazing.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah.
Well, so much good stuff fell out of this conversation. So, so on behalf of our listeners, you know, thank you for a, a good time and just, you know, sharing your, your insights. Um, and I, I think, I think we did a lot of work here, you know, just talking about like the- I agree
you know, like the inner experience of why, why it is so hard. Um, you know, opportunities to, uh, ha- have a middle path. Like, how do you start to establish connections in a more structured or organized way if it is hard for you to go up and start talking to people, right? But then we also talked about a lot of the inner work that’s often required in being able to not just establish connections, but like what you were talking about at the end there, how do you maintain them, um, if, if there are some, some patterns on your side that will, you know, will, will lead you to blow out of relationships unless you have a, a different way of, of managing it.
So, so much good stuff. Um, hey, I, I know we have to go, but before we end, just really briefly, tell people a little bit more about your, your practice in Los Angeles, where to find you, and…
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: Yeah. So, um, I am the founder and owner of SoCal DBT, where we offer comprehensive DBT, but we also do private practice psychotherapy, so we offer other types of evidence-based psychotherapy like CBT, ACT.
Um, you can find us at, um, socaldbt.com and suzannewallach.com, and my Instagram is @drsuzannewallach, and my TikTok is the same.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: Amazing. Well, Dr. Suzanne Wallach, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you for spending this time
Dr. Suzanne Wallach: with us. Thanks for having me. This was wonderful.
What to take with you
It’s not a personal flaw.
Grocery delivery, pandemic-era friendships that fizzled, and hybrid work quietly removed many of the places adults used to meet friends by default.
Repetition beats charisma.
Showing up to the same interest-based activity week after week makes getting to know people almost inevitable, and research suggests close friendships take 200-plus hours together.
You’re allowed to go and not talk.
Classes and clubs let you build familiarity first and start a conversation when you’re ready, even after ten visits.
Ambivalence is information.
Get curious about what’s in the way, then take one tiny opposite step, like texting an old friend. Reconnecting counts.
Introverts don’t have to change.
Figure out how much extroversion you can handle, and leave when your social battery runs low so you can come back next week.
Healthy connection starts on the inside.
Being okay alone, and believing you deserve good people, shapes who you choose and who you let close.
What we cover, in order
- Why is it so hard to make friends as an adult?
- Where do adults actually meet new friends?
- What do you do when you want friends but making them feels exhausting?
- Can you make friends as an adult if you’re an introvert?
- Why does making good friends start with being okay on your own?
- Can you actually learn how to make friends?
- Why reading about friendship probably isn’t enough
- How many friends do you actually need?
What’s in this article
It’s so much more common than people think. The places that used to hand us friends by default, like offices, errands, and neighborhoods, have thinned out, and a lot of friendships fizzled during the pandemic. Being lonely right now says more about how we live than about you.
Pick one recurring thing you already enjoy, a class, a book club, a running group, and go every week. You don’t have to talk to anyone at first. Familiarity builds on its own, and conversation gets easier once faces feel known.
No. Forcing yourself into a personality that isn’t yours mostly creates anxiety. The better question is how much socializing feels good to you, and then building a social life around that, including permission to leave when your battery runs low.
Longer than most of us expect. One well-known study estimated roughly 50 hours together to become casual friends and more than 200 to become close friends. If it hasn’t happened after a few coffees, you’re not doing it wrong. You’re just early.
Yes, and I think it’s one of the most practical uses of coaching. A coach helps you choose where to start, plan around your energy, rehearse the awkward parts, and debrief afterward, which is exactly the on-the-ground support that’s hard to give yourself.
How to Make Friends as an Adult (Without Becoming an Extrovert)
You want more friends. Real ones, the kind you could text on a random Tuesday night. But if you’re honest, the work of making them feels exhausting, and somewhere along the way you may have started to wonder if the problem is you. If you’ve been searching for how to make friends as an adult, here’s the short answer I want you to hear first: it isn’t because something is wrong with you, and you don’t have to turn into the life of the party. Making friends as an adult comes down to two things. There’s the outside work of showing up to the same thing again and again, and the inside work of tolerating the awkward, in-between feelings that come with it.
I’m a psychologist and a marriage and family therapist, and (full disclosure) I’m also the kind of extrovert who will happily chat up the stranger on the next bar stool. That becomes relevant in a minute. Loneliness comes up in our practice constantly, often tucked inside a conversation that started out being about something else, because building healthy connection with other people is one of the pillars of a good life, right alongside your love life, your work, and your relationship with yourself.
Here’s what I’ve noticed about the people my team works with at Growing Self. Most of them already know the advice. Join a club. Put yourself out there. Say yes more. They’ve read the lists. The problem isn’t information. It’s that the moment you’re about to walk into a room full of strangers, a very old part of you starts making a persuasive case for the couch. This article is going to give you real language for what’s happening, and some strategies that genuinely work. But doing it differently, next Thursday at 6:30 when the class is about to start and you’re sitting in your car deciding whether to go in, is the part our coaches help people with every single day.
Recently I sat down with Dr. Suzanne Wallach, PsyD, LMFT, founder of SoCal DBT in Los Angeles, to talk about exactly this on the Love, Happiness & Success podcast. Suzanne and I have very similar training and very different wiring, and what came out of our conversation was a middle path that I think a lot of you are going to find freeing. You can listen to the full episode above, or keep reading for the highlights and what to actually do with them.
Why Is It So Hard to Make Friends as an Adult?
It’s hard to make friends as an adult because most of the places that used to hand us friends by default have quietly disappeared, and a lot of us are simply out of practice. That’s not a character flaw. Suzanne called it a perfect storm, and I think she’s exactly right.
Think about how few reasons you have to leave the house now. Suzanne told me her dad visits and marvels that her dry cleaning and her groceries both show up at the door. (She admitted she hasn’t been inside a grocery store since COVID, which, honestly, I suspect a lot of us can relate to.) Every one of those little errands used to be a small chance to see the same faces and be seen.
Then the pandemic happened, and a lot of friendships didn’t end so much as fizzle. People moved. Standing plans dissolved. If you’ve been quietly grieving friendships that faded during those years without ever getting a real ending, you are far from alone.
Work changed, too. Suzanne remembers that in her 20s, work was where she met basically all of her friends. You went in, you saw the same people every day, and you all went out afterward. With so many jobs now hybrid or remote, that built-in social life just isn’t there anymore for many adults.
And then there’s what we reach for instead. Suzanne has heard people say that when they get lonely, they talk to ChatGPT, and that theirs even has a name. The catch, as she pointed out, is that an AI companion is designed to agree with you. That can feel soothing in the moment, but it isn’t the same as a friend who knows you, challenges you, and actually shows up.
This isn’t just a vibe. In 2023 the U.S. Surgeon General released a formal advisory on loneliness and isolation in America, describing a long, steady decline in how much time people spend with each other in person. As I said to Suzanne, people are becoming a little untethered from other humans. And when you stop practicing being around people, being around people starts to feel strange.
When people come to my team feeling lonely, one of the first things we do is gently separate two things: what’s been happening around you, and what you’ve decided it means about you. Those are very different problems. Only one of them is actually about you, and it’s usually the smaller one.
Where Do Adults Actually Meet New Friends?
Adults meet friends most reliably by going to the same interest-based activity, at the same time, over and over, until getting to know people becomes almost inevitable. Repetition, proximity, and shared interests do most of the heavy lifting. Charm is optional.
Suzanne’s favorite example is her own. She danced ballet from the time she was three until about 19, stopped, and then went back in her early 30s. She ended up going almost every day, and those classmates became her best girlfriends. Some of them were in her wedding. She’s 49 now, still takes class two or three times a week, and some of those same women are still at the barre with her more than ten years later.
She’s seen it work for her clients, too. One woman in her late 20s moved to a new city and joined a book club because she loves to read. Another signed up for painting classes. When you show up for something you already enjoy, you’re surrounded by people who enjoy it too, and that gives you something to talk about besides the weather.
I added the piece I always think about here, which is the kid next door. There’s a reason your childhood best friend probably lived on your street. That was the kid you saw at the bus stop every morning and walked home with every afternoon. Researchers noticed this decades ago: a classic 1950 study of student housing at MIT found that people were far more likely to become friends with whoever lived closest to them. Proximity isn’t romantic, but it works.
It also takes longer than most of us expect, which I actually find reassuring. Communication researcher Jeffrey Hall estimated that it takes somewhere around 50 hours together to go from acquaintance to casual friend, and more than 200 hours to become close friends (Hall, 2019). If three coffee dates haven’t produced a best friend, nothing has gone wrong. You’re just early.
The Relief of Not Having to Talk to Anyone (Yet)
Here’s the part of our conversation I loved most. So many of these settings let you show up without having to talk to anybody. I recently started Pilates. People are nice, we say hi, and I don’t have to make conversation with a single person if I don’t feel like it. Suzanne has a client who does the same thing: some weeks she chats and grabs coffee with the women from class, and some weeks she just leaves. That optionality makes it feel manageable, and the repetition quietly does the rest.
In fact, you can go ten times and simply let people become familiar, then strike up a conversation with the person you’ve been sitting next to for a month. That is a completely legitimate strategy, and I share a few more in this episode on how to have more real friends.
One caution Suzanne raised: a lot of modern communities are built around status rather than genuine connection, which can leave people feeling like they’re on the outside looking in. (I’ve heard that some country clubs cost hundreds of thousands of dollars just to join. With an S.) You don’t need any of that. A book club, a running group, a community class, or a volunteer shift can do the job for free or close to it.
If you’re thinking, “Okay, but what would I even go to?”, that’s a very normal place to get stuck. A coach on our team will often start right there: what do you actually enjoy, what fits your week, and what’s the smallest version of it you’d genuinely show up for? Having someone help you pick the one thing, and then ask whether you went, makes a surprising difference.
What Do You Do When You Want Friends but Making Them Feels Exhausting?
Start by getting curious about the part of you that doesn’t want to do it, and then take one small step in the opposite direction. Wanting close friends and not wanting to do the work can both be true at the same time.
I asked Suzanne about this because I hear it so often. A lot of us would love to skip straight to ready-made best friends who adore us and would do anything for us. It’s the micro-steps, the awkward first conversations and the texts that don’t get answered, that we’d rather avoid.
Suzanne was lovingly blunt: those instant best friends don’t exist. Action is required. You have to leave your house, you have to meet people, and it takes effort from both sides. But then she offered something I found really kind. Treat the push-pull as information. If your goal is close friendships and something keeps stopping you, what is it? Fear of rejection? A little embarrassment about how long it’s been? Once you can name it, you can work with it.
Her suggestion comes from a skill called opposite action, which simply means doing the opposite of what an uncomfortable feeling is urging you to do. And it can be tiny. Say hi to someone at the coffee shop. Or send a text to an old friend that says, “Hey, I’ve been thinking about you. How are you?” Reconnecting absolutely counts. Your next good friendship might be with someone you already know.
If you’d like a few more gentle starting points, this piece on finding true friendship in a frantic world walks through how to rebuild connection one small step at a time.
If you just recognized yourself in the “I want it, I just don’t want to do it” part, you’re in very good company. That exact ambivalence is something our coaches work with all the time, and it tends to loosen up a lot faster when you’re not arguing with it by yourself. You don’t need to be in crisis to talk to someone about this. Wanting a fuller life is reason enough.
Can You Make Friends as an Adult If You’re an Introvert?
Yes, absolutely. Introverts make close, lasting friends all the time. The goal is not to become an extrovert. As Suzanne put it, the real question is how much extroversion you can handle, and then building your social life around that honest answer.
Suzanne and I turned out to be a pretty good demonstration of this. I’m the one at the bar turning to the people on either side of me to say hi, and I love it. My husband’s position is more or less, “Why would I talk to anybody?” Suzanne is somewhere in the middle. She’ll happily talk someone’s ear off if they interest her, and she’s very done with people after a long day of sessions. Meanwhile her husband knows every single neighbor they have.
Those differences are real, and they tend to be pretty stable. Introversion and extroversion are one of the Big Five personality dimensions, so it’s okay to approach friendship in a way that fits your wiring instead of forcing yourself into a personality that isn’t yours. Suzanne was clear that trying to push yourself into being someone you’re not mostly just creates anxiety.
One practical tool she uses with clients is noticing your social battery. One of her clients practices tuning into her body so that when her battery runs low, she says, “Okay, I’m going home,” rather than white-knuckling the rest of the night and then feeling wiped out for two days afterward. Leaving early isn’t failing. It’s what makes it possible to come back next week.
And introversion comes with real strengths. It usually means you can be alone with yourself and enjoy your own company, which, as you’ll see in a second, is a big deal. If this sounds like you, you might also appreciate the quiet power of introverts.
When our coaches help an introverted client with friendship, we don’t build a plan that requires them to become the loudest person in the room. We build one around their actual energy: fewer, more meaningful commitments, a clear exit plan, and settings where connection can grow slowly. It’s much easier to stick with a plan that was designed for the person you actually are.
Why Does Making Good Friends Start With Being Okay on Your Own?
Because being able to sit with yourself, and with your own feelings, is what lets you choose healthy connections instead of grabbing whatever fills the silence. Healthy relationships with other people really do start on the inside.
This was the part of our conversation I didn’t see coming, and it might be the most important. Suzanne said that one of the things she works on most with people is simply tolerating being alone. If you always need to be moving, busy, and entertained, it’s often because stillness means feeling things you’d rather not feel. Her phrase for it made me laugh: you can’t hit a moving target.
It reminded me of something a clinical supervisor told me years ago. She believed that most of the problems in the world come from people not being able to tolerate their own feelings. The goal isn’t to make feelings disappear. Suzanne said the same thing about the skills she teaches. They aren’t there to make you feel better. They’re there to keep you from making things worse. If you’re going through a breakup, you’re going to feel sad. The skill is being able to feel sad and stay steady.
Here’s why that matters for friendship. When being alone feels unbearable, people can end up in, or stay in, relationships that honestly aren’t good for them, just because having somebody in the space feels better than the quiet. Learning to be okay on your own is a big part of what we mean by personal growth work. It gives you the freedom to be choosy.
Suzanne wrote her dissertation on how people choose romantic partners, and she summed up a lot of it in one line: “If you don’t feel worthy, water seeks its own level.” We tend to choose people who match how we feel about ourselves on the inside. That’s true in romance, and it’s true in friendship.
It connects to something psychologist Dr. Marisa Franco shared when she was on the show. Her research found that people who have been hurt a lot in relationships can actually feel uncomfortable when others are kind to them, and more at home with people who treat them poorly. If that stirs something for you, my conversation with Dr. Franco about toxic friends is worth a listen.
Please hear this the right way. None of this means you’re broken, or that you have to fix everything about yourself before you’re allowed to have friends. It means that the more you believe you deserve good people, the easier it becomes to recognize them, and to let them in.
If you’d like to go further, here’s more on believing you are worthy of love and respect, and some guidance on finding the right friends once you start meeting people.
This inside work is where a lot of the people I work with find the biggest shift. It’s also the hardest part to do alone, because the patterns that shape who we let close were usually learned a long time ago, and they feel like the truth rather than a habit. Talking it through with a coach or therapist on our team helps you see the pattern from the outside, which is where change usually starts.
See where you are right now with our free Self-Esteem Test. It takes a few minutes and gives you a personalized starting point.
Take the free Self-Esteem TestCan You Actually Learn How to Make Friends?
Yes. Friendship skills are learnable, and for a lot of adults who feel out of practice, breaking those skills into small, concrete steps is what finally makes socializing feel less mysterious.
I’m a big fan of the PEERS program that came out of UCLA (the UCLA PEERS Clinic). It was designed mainly for younger people, but the ideas work for anyone. It breaks down things most of us were never taught, like how to start a conversation with someone you’d like to know, or how to join two or three people who are already talking without it feeling weird.
That matters because of a painful loop I see a lot. When you’ve been avoiding people and you’re out of practice, your first few attempts can come out a little stiff. The other person reacts to that, and it confirms the fear that made you avoid people in the first place. Learning how people who are good at this actually operate is what breaks the loop.
Suzanne added the DBT perspective. One of its skill areas, interpersonal effectiveness, is about keeping relationships while also keeping your self-respect. How do you get your needs met without being a doormat? When do you take no for an answer, and when do you push a little? She also made a point I love: save the hard conversations for when you’re calm. On a one-to-ten distress scale, she said these skills really only work down around a one to three, because at a ten the thinking part of your brain simply isn’t online.
You can find the same active ingredients in other places, too. A lot of the work we do around emotional intelligence is exactly this: self-awareness, managing your reactions, and communication skills that make relationships easier.
Suzanne also pointed out that there are plenty of low-key ways to learn, like free skills videos online, workbooks, and skills groups. You don’t have to sign up for a big program to start building these muscles.
This is also where coaching can be really useful. As Suzanne said, a coach can do the kind of on-the-ground work that doesn’t happen in a therapist’s office: helping you plan for Thursday’s class, rehearse the first conversation, and debrief afterward. If you’re curious about what a life coach does, that’s a good primer, and you can learn more about working with a coach on our team here.
Why Reading About Friendship Probably Isn’t Enough
I want to be honest with you about something. Everything in this article is real, and it works. People use these ideas and their lives genuinely change. But I’d be doing you a disservice if I let you close this tab thinking that reading it was the work.
Here’s what usually happens. You read something like this, it clicks, and you feel a little hopeful. You make a mental note to finally sign up for that class. Then Thursday comes, you’re tired, the couch is right there, and a very persuasive voice points out that you could always start next week. Three months later, you’re reading another article about loneliness.
That isn’t because you lack willpower, and it isn’t because you’re doing it wrong. It’s because you’re trying to change a long-standing pattern, by yourself, in exactly the moment that pattern is loudest. That’s the hardest possible time to do something new.
What helps is having someone in your corner who knows your specific patterns. Someone who helps you choose the one thing to try, notices when you’re about to talk yourself out of it, and helps you make sense of how it went so the next step feels a little easier. That’s what coaching with my team actually looks like. Not lectures, and not generic tips. An ongoing relationship with a real person who is paying attention to your life.
You don’t need to be in crisis, and you don’t need to have already tried and failed. We also work with people at a few different price points, including lower-fee sessions with coaches in our practicum program, so cost doesn’t have to be the thing that keeps you home.
If something here landed somewhere specific for you, that’s your signal. Schedule a free consultation with me or someone on my team. There’s no pressure and no commitment, just a real conversation about where your social life is now, where you’d like it to be, and whether working with us might help you close that gap.
How Many Friends Do You Actually Need?
Fewer than you probably think. It’s the perceived quality of our connections, not the number, that has the biggest impact on our happiness and even our long-term health. One or two close friends can be enough.
This is how I closed the episode, and I meant it. A large review of 148 studies found that people with stronger social relationships had about a 50 percent greater likelihood of survival over the course of those studies (Holt-Lunstad et al., 2010). People really do live longer when they’re woven into a positive community. But you don’t need a hundred people. You need a few good ones.
If you want to think about what that looks like in practice, here’s more on what healthy friendship looks like.
And I’ll leave you with the thing I most want you to take away. If some part of you has decided that you’re lonely because you’re too awkward, too introverted, or too weird, I want to gently disagree. Everybody’s weird. The goal was never to stop being weird. It’s to find your specific genre of weirdo and keep showing up where they are.
If you’d like a place to start, take our free self-esteem assessment to see how the way you feel about yourself might be shaping your connections. And when you’re ready, our coaches would love to help you build a plan for the social life you actually want, at a pace that fits who you are.
xoxo,
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby
P.S. Curious whether self-doubt is quietly getting in the way of connection? The free Self-Esteem Test takes a few minutes and gives you a personalized starting point.
P.P.S. Know someone who’s been feeling lonely lately? Send this to them. Sometimes the first small step is a text from a friend.
About this episode’s guest and host
Dr. Suzanne Wallach
Dr. Suzanne Wallach, PsyD, LMFT, is a psychologist, a licensed marriage and family therapist, and the founder and owner of SoCal DBT in Los Angeles, as well as the group practice Suzanne Wallach & Associates. She has spent more than 14 years working with DBT skills, and she brings a rare blend of clinical depth and systemic, relationship-focused thinking to her work. You may have heard her on the SHE MD podcast.
What I appreciated most about Suzanne in our conversation was how practical and human she is. She’ll tell you the truth (ready-made best friends don’t exist), and in the same breath she’ll tell you about the ballet class that gave her some of her closest friendships, and the ones who stood beside her at her wedding.
You can learn more about Suzanne and her team at SoCal DBT and at Suzanne Wallach & Associates, and follow her on Instagram and TikTok at @drsuzannewallach.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby
Licensed psychologist, licensed marriage and family therapist, board-certified coach and AAMFT clinical supervisor. Founder of Growing Self Counseling & Coaching. Author of Exaholics. Host of the Love, Happiness & Success podcast. Learn more about Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby.
On this episode she brings the extrovert’s side of the story, including the Pilates class she recently started and the contrast with her own husband, and presses Suzanne on the part most friendship advice skips: what to do when you want the friends and genuinely dread the effort.
Questions people ask about how to make friends as an adult
Because many of the places that used to create friendships automatically have faded. Errands are delivered, lots of jobs are hybrid or remote, and many friendships fizzled during the pandemic. Many adults are also out of practice, which makes socializing feel more awkward than it used to. It’s a cultural shift, not a personal flaw.
The most reliable places are recurring, interest-based activities: a weekly class, a book club, a running group, a hobby group, or a volunteer shift. Going to the same thing at the same time each week creates repetition and proximity, which research links to friendship forming, and shared interests give you something natural to talk about.
Research by Jeffrey Hall (2019) estimated that it takes around 50 hours together to become casual friends, about 90 hours to become friends, and more than 200 hours to become close friends. That’s why showing up consistently over weeks and months matters more than any single great conversation.
Build a social life that fits your wiring instead of forcing yourself to act extroverted. Choose smaller, recurring settings, let familiarity build before you talk, and pay attention to your social battery so you can leave before you’re drained. Introverts often make deep, lasting friends because they’re comfortable with their own company.
Get curious about what’s in the way, such as fear of rejection or embarrassment about being out of practice. Then take one very small step in the opposite direction, like saying hi to someone at a coffee shop or texting an old friend that you’ve been thinking about them.
Yes. Reaching out to someone you’ve lost touch with is often easier than starting from scratch, because some trust and history are already there. A simple “I’ve been thinking about you, how are you?” is a completely legitimate way to rebuild your social circle.
Not really. An AI companion can feel comforting, but it’s designed to agree with you and respond on demand. Friendship involves mutual care, challenge, shared history, and showing up for each other in real life, which is what actually protects well-being over time.
When you can tolerate your own company and feelings, you’re less likely to grab onto whoever fills the silence and more able to choose people who are genuinely good for you. Feeling worthy of good relationships makes it easier to recognize healthy people and let them close.
Yes. Friendship skills like starting a conversation, joining a group that’s already talking, and handling disagreements can be broken into concrete steps and practiced. Programs like UCLA’s PEERS, skills workbooks, and coaching all teach these skills in a structured way.
Fewer than most people think. Research shows it’s the perceived quality of your relationships, not the number, that matters most for happiness and long-term health. One or two close friends you trust can make a real difference.
Yes. A coach can help you identify where to start, build a plan around your personality and energy, practice conversations, and debrief what happened, so you keep going instead of retreating after one awkward night. At Growing Self, coaches and therapists work with clients on exactly this kind of goal.
Sources cited in this episode
- Festinger, L., Schachter, S., & Back, K. (1950). Social pressures in informal groups: A study of human factors in housing. Harper.
- Hall, J. A. (2019). How many hours does it take to make a friend? Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, 36(4), 1278–1296. https://doi.org/10.1177/0265407518761225
- Holt-Lunstad, J., Smith, T. B., & Layton, J. B. (2010). Social relationships and mortality risk: A meta-analytic review. PLoS Medicine, 7(7), e1000316. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pmed.1000316
- Office of the Surgeon General. (2023). Our epidemic of loneliness and isolation: The U.S. Surgeon General’s advisory on the healing effects of social connection and community. U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. https://www.hhs.gov/sites/default/files/surgeon-general-social-connection-advisory.pdf
Resources, people and organizations mentioned in the recording: the UCLA PEERS Clinic, the evidence-based social skills program whose broken-down approach to conversations Dr. Lisa recommends. Dr. Marisa G. Franco, psychologist and author of Platonic: How the Science of Attachment Can Help You Make and Keep Friends (2022), whose research on worthiness and relationships comes up in the worthiness section and who was a previous guest on the show. Suzanne also points listeners toward DBT skills workbooks and free videos of Marsha Linehan, the developer of DBT, teaching the skills online. Suzanne’s own practices are SoCal DBT and Suzanne Wallach & Associates, linked in the About the Guest section above.
