How to Get What You Want: Negotiation Skills for Real Life
with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby and Attia Qureshi
Why You Freeze When You Try to Ask for What You Want
Most of us were never taught any path between fawning and hardening. There is one. And it does not require you to become someone you are not.
If you’ve ever known exactly what you wanted and still found yourself smiling and saying “no, no, it is fine” — and walked out of the room furious at yourself — this episode is for you. The freeze is not a character flaw. It is physiology, and it has an origin story.
I sat down with negotiation expert Attia Qureshi, who teaches at the University of Michigan and previously taught at MIT Sloan, to walk through a real four-step playbook for getting what you want without either fighting or folding. We covered the difference between positions and interests, the test for influence vs manipulation, and the reciprocity move that resets a relationship over time. Plus a story involving a drone, a cartel, and a glass of lemonade. Truly.
The best part is that the framework scales down. The skills you build with your barista or your neighbor are the ones that show up in your hands when something hard comes up at home.
“Take out the trash is the position. I don’t want to feel alone is the interest.” — Attia Qureshi
Moments from this episode
Episode transcript
Cleaned Descript transcript for chapter 1 will be inserted here, running from 00:00 to 03:20.
Cleaned Descript transcript for chapter 2 will be inserted here, running from 03:20 to 06:41.
Cleaned Descript transcript for chapter 3 will be inserted here, running from 06:41 to 13:43.
Cleaned Descript transcript for chapter 4 will be inserted here, running from 13:43 to 27:51.
Cleaned Descript transcript for chapter 5 will be inserted here, running from 27:51 to 32:51.
Cleaned Descript transcript for chapter 6 will be inserted here, running from 32:51 to 35:54.
Cleaned Descript transcript for chapter 7 will be inserted here, running from 35:54 to 43:27.
Cleaned Descript transcript for chapter 8 will be inserted here, running from 43:27 to the end of the episode.
What to take with you
Most of us are stuck in fawn-or-harden after relational hurt.
After a betrayal, rejection, or sustained experience of being overlooked, most of us learn one of two patterns: fawn (please everyone, never ask for anything) or harden (build a shell, refuse to need people). Both feel protective. Both cost us connection. The third path is what this episode is actually about.
You cannot negotiate with another person until you have negotiated with yourself.
Before any difficult conversation, the first move is regulating your own nervous system. Attia describes managing her own fight-or-flight response with breathing and a walk before she ever reset the cartel boss in the room. The skills come back online once your physiology calms down, and not before.
“Take out the trash” is the position. The interest is something else entirely.
The thing you are demanding is almost never the thing you actually want. Underneath every position is an interest, usually something about feeling alone, disrespected, or unimportant. When you can name your interest, the conversation changes. When you can guess the other person’s, the conversation stops being a fight.
Reciprocity is real, and it is a long game.
Cialdini’s research on reciprocity is rigorous and the principle is hardwired in us: when someone does something kind, we feel a pull to even the scales. That is why the lemonade worked. But reciprocity is not quid-pro-quo. You give without an expectation, repeatedly, and the dynamic slowly resets. If you try to cash it in tomorrow, it does not work.
Influence becomes manipulation when you stop caring whether the other person would mind.
Attia’s test is simple: if they found out exactly what you were doing, would they be upset? If you are trying to build a better relationship, they will not mind. If you are trying to extract something from them they have not agreed to give, they will. That is the line.
How to Get What You Want: Negotiation Skills for Real Life
You know what you want. You have probably known for a while. The problem is that when the moment comes to actually say it out loud, something happens. Your throat closes up. You hear yourself smile and say “no, no, it is fine,” and then you walk out of the room furious at yourself. Or you go the other way, you go too hot, the words come out sharp, and now you are fighting about something you did not even mean to fight about. If you have been wondering how to get what you want without either caving or starting a fight, hey, you are not imagining how hard this feels. Most of us were never taught any path between fawning and hardening. There is one. And it does not require you to become someone you are not.
I have been a marriage and family therapist for over twenty years, and the conversation I have most often with my clients is not actually about how to argue better. It is about why they stop being able to speak at all the moment something matters. The freeze is real. The cave is real. The fawning to keep the peace until you cannot do it anymore and you blow up sideways at the wrong person on a Tuesday morning, that is real too. None of those patterns are a character flaw, my friend. All of them have an origin story, and most of those stories started a long time ago. (Mine did. I will tell you about it in a minute.)
Most of the people who walk into my therapy office, or onto a video call with one of the coaches on my team at Growing Self, with this exact pattern have already read the books. They have listened to the podcasts. They know what they are supposed to do. The problem is not information. The problem is that your nervous system has been running the same script since you were nine years old, and a paragraph in a blog post is not going to override that. What I am going to share with you is real, and it is going to give you language for what is happening inside you. But the actual work, the part where you do something different next Tuesday at 9pm with the actual person you have been stuck with for the last seven years, that is the work the people on my team do with people like you every single day.
And speaking of help, I just had one of the most useful conversations I have had on this show all year, and it was with someone who has practiced this third path everywhere from a Colombian orange grove full of cartel-adjacent farmers to her own driveway with a neighbor who made her move-in day miserable. Her name is Attia Qureshi. She teaches negotiation at the University of Michigan and previously taught at MIT Sloan, and what I love about her work is that she does not treat negotiation as a boardroom sport. She treats it as a daily relationship skill, the kind you practice with your barista so it is already in your hands when something hard comes up at home. Which is exactly the territory the relationship coaches and couples therapists on my team work in every day.
Here is what makes Attia’s story different. She did not arrive at this work through theory. She tells the story on the show of being severely bullied in fifth grade by a girl named Bethany, yes, Bethany, the original. After that year, she did what so many of us do after relational hurt. She built what she calls an exoskeleton: a hard shell, a fake-it-till-you-make-it confidence, and a positional negotiation style she could deploy on command. It worked for one-off interactions. It cost her everything in the relationships she actually wanted. Then years later, sitting in a graduate negotiation class at MIT, her co-author John Richardson said something to her that completely changed her world. He said you can get more out of a negotiation by genuinely caring about what the other person wants and building a stronger relationship. That single sentence is the whole episode in a breath.
I have to share something here, because it is part of why this conversation hit me so hard. When Attia told the Bethany story, I told her about a relational hurt of my own that I have not talked about much on the show. When I was younger, I went through a brutal breakup where my ex-boyfriend and my best friend ended up together, and the entire friend group went with them. There was a PR campaign waged against me. My heart was broken. And the way I coped with that, the version of me that I built afterward, was the ice queen. I do not need anyone. I do not care anyway. (Reader, I cared. So much. It was the worst.) That coping style worked for a while. And it cost me, exactly the way Attia’s exoskeleton cost her. Most of us have a version of that story. The work is figuring out what we built, and whether we still need it.
Why Do I Freeze When I Try to Ask for What I Want?
You freeze because your body is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. When a conversation registers as emotionally risky, your nervous system shifts into fight-or-flight, your cortisol spikes, and the part of your brain that lets you think clearly goes partially offline. That is not a personality flaw. It is physiology, and it happens to everyone, including the people you assume are good at this stuff.
Attia tells this story on the show, and it is so good. She walked into a meeting with a Colombian agricultural cooperative expecting to brief 40 men on a crop transition program. Within minutes, the cartel-affiliated leader of the cooperative had pulled out a drone and was flying it through the pavilion to drown her out. Her words exactly: “I was breathing heavily and I was sweating.” Her cortisol had spiked. And before she did anything else, before she said a word to the room, she walked away from the table, did some slow breathing, took a literal walk around the pavilion, and let her nervous system come back online. Only then did she go back and reset the conversation. The order matters. You cannot regulate a room until you regulate yourself.
Now think about that scaled down. The same physiology fires when your mother-in-law makes a comment at Thanksgiving. When your boss says “do you have a minute” on Slack. When your partner brings up the thing you both keep not-quite-talking-about. Your body does not know the difference between a cartel boss and a coworker. It only knows that something feels threatening, and once it shifts into that gear, your prefrontal cortex is no longer fully running the show. That is why the words you rehearsed in the shower never come out the way you planned.
The freeze gets worse when there is a relational backstory. If you have had years of being overlooked, dismissed, or chosen against, your nervous system has filed every difficult conversation under “high stakes,” even when the current one is not. The freeze is not about this conversation. It is about every conversation like this one you have had before. The work is doing two things at once: building the in-the-moment regulation skills, and processing the older relational injuries underneath. The combination is what gives people back their voice.
There is also a particular pattern that shows up after relational hurt. Most of us, after being hurt, swing in one of two directions. Some of us turn into people pleasers. We fawn. We make ourselves smaller. We never ask for anything because asking might cost us the relationship. Others harden. We decide we do not need anyone. We build the exoskeleton and we negotiate from inside a fortress. Either way, our voice goes underground. Both of these are coping. Both of them work, in the short term. Both of them cost us connection in the long term.
Here is the part I want you to hear, my friend. The freeze is not a sign that you are weak or that you have failed at being assertive. It is a sign that something in your history made it dangerous to use your voice. The most powerful thing I see happen in my therapy office is the moment someone names that, out loud, with another human being, often for the first time. Years of “I just shut down” or “I just go along” turn into something more specific: my body, doing this thing, in response to that older pattern. That moment of recognition is what makes the next conversation different.
How Do I Negotiate Without Being Aggressive or Giving In?
You give yourself a four-step sequence and you run it in order. Regulate your own nervous system first. Set explicit norms for how the conversation will go and get agreement on them. Build relational connection through small, specific acts of attention. And hold the line when someone violates the agreed norms. That is the playbook Attia used in Colombia, and it scales down to the conversation you need to have at home tonight.
Let me walk through what she actually did, because it makes the abstract concrete. After she calmed her own physiology, she went back to the table and reset the conversation by setting ground rules. She said, in effect: here is how we are going to operate together. We are going to take turns. We are going to be respectful and attentive. Are we agreed? Forty men nodded. That nod is what gave her something to enforce. When the cartel boss tried to fly the drone again, she stopped, turned to him, and said, very calmly: we agreed to take turns. If you cannot do that, I am going to have to ask you to leave. He was shocked. The room relaxed. The room had been waiting, for years, for someone to do exactly this.
Then she did the part that almost everyone skips. She spent ten minutes on names. Family stories. What each farmer cared about. That is not small talk, my friend. That is the work of building enough trust through empathy that the rest of the conversation has somewhere to land. When the disruptor tried to violate the norms a second time, she asked him to leave, and he stormed out. The remaining 40 men picked up the conversation themselves, started writing on the board, started volunteering to lead pieces of the work. The whole dynamic flipped.
The translation to ordinary life is not subtle. Before a difficult conversation with your partner, you regulate. You name how you would like the conversation to go (something like: I want to actually understand each other on this. Can we agree to take turns and not interrupt?) and you get explicit agreement before you go into content. You spend a beat on connection first. And if the agreed norms get violated mid-conversation, you name it, calmly, and you ask for the conversation to reset. That is not aggression. That is structure. Most relationships do not fall apart because the people in them are mean. They fall apart because nobody ever sets the container.
Here is what doing this with a coach on my team actually looks like, in practical terms. You bring in the conversation that is coming up. The one you have been losing sleep over. We talk through your nervous system response, what is likely to fire, what to watch for. We script out the container-setting language, in your own words. We rehearse the pause-and-reset move. You go have the actual conversation. You come back the next session and we debrief. Then we do it again. The version of you reading this article and the version of you in a real conflict at 10pm are two different people, and that gap is exactly the gap a coach helps you close.
Two short videos and a workbook for handling exactly the kinds of conversations Attia and I just walked through. Same skills my team teaches couples and individuals in their first sessions. Genuinely free.
Get the Free Communication Training →What Is the Difference Between Positions and Interests?
A position is what you are demanding. An interest is what you actually care about underneath the demand. They are almost never the same thing, and most fights happen at the level of positions while the interests sit untouched.
This is the framework that comes from Roger Fisher and William Ury in their book Getting to Yes, and it is the single most useful thing Attia and I talked about for couples. Here is the example we walked through, which is the one I see in my couples counseling office at least three times a week. A wife says to her husband: you need to take out the trash without being asked. That is the position. The thing she is demanding. If they argue about whether the trash got taken out, they are arguing about the position, and they will go in circles forever, because the trash is not actually what either of them is upset about.
Underneath the position is the interest. What she actually cares about is something more like: I do not want to feel alone in running this household. That is the real ask. And once it is on the table, the conversation changes shape entirely, because now there are dozens of ways the partner can address the actual need, only one of which is the trash. Hint: it might be a thank-you. Or it might be him noticing, on his own, that the dishwasher is full.
Attia gave me one tool from her practice that I told her, on air, that I might steal for couples counseling. (And I have. It is good.) She has couples each write down what they think is most important to the other person. Then they trade lists. The conversation that follows is not a fight. It is appreciation, correction, curiosity. Suddenly the work of understanding becomes mutual, and the negotiation becomes something both people are doing together rather than against each other. The first time I tried it with a couple, the wife teared up. She said no one had ever thought about her interests on purpose before. They had been married eleven years. Tools like this are the practical edge of emotional intelligence in real relationships.
Research backs this up cleanly. In a now-classic study of negotiation outcomes, Neale and Bazerman (1991) showed that the negotiators who spent the largest share of their preparation time understanding the other party’s interests (rather than rehearsing their own arguments) consistently produced better outcomes for both sides. The lesson is the same in a marriage as it is in a boardroom. The person who can name what the other person actually wants, in their own words, has already won most of the conversation.
I want to tell you something the couples I work with at Growing Self always show up with, that this section is about. They have figured out, long before they walk into our office, that the loop they are stuck in is not actually about the dishes. They know the surface fight is a stand-in for something underneath. The thing they cannot do, on their own, is have the conversation about the interest. It is too vulnerable. It is too easy to fall back into the position-fight when something gets activated. That is what couples coaching is for.
What Is the Difference Between Influence and Manipulation?
The line is your intention, and the test for whether you are on the right side of it is straightforward: if the other person found out exactly what you were doing, would they be upset?
I love this test, because it is so much cleaner than the way the topic usually gets discussed. Attia put it this way on the show. If you are taking your difficult neighbor a glass of lemonade because you want to slowly improve the relationship, and they found out that was your intention, they would probably be glad. That is influence. If you are doing something to extract a result from someone that they would object to if they understood what was happening, that is manipulation. The line lives in your intention, and your intention shows up in your behavior.
There is real science behind this distinction. Robert Cialdini’s work on reciprocity, codified in his book Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion, shows that the human pull to repay a favor is hardwired across cultures. The behavior is the same whether the giver is genuine or strategic. The difference is what happens to the relationship afterward. Genuine reciprocity builds trust over time. Strategic reciprocity, the kind people use to manipulate, creates a brittle exchange that breaks the moment the other person realizes what was happening. You have probably been on the receiving end of one of those at some point. It feels gross. There is a reason.
There is one more piece worth naming. Attia and I talked about Adam Grant’s framework from his book Give and Take. Givers default to generosity. Takers extract without returning. Matchers reciprocate when reciprocated. If you have been giving to someone and watching them take, take, take, that is data. After three or four genuine attempts, if the other person has not shifted toward matching, you are not influencing. You are being used. Setting when to say no at that point is not failure. It is the appropriate, healthy response to information you have collected. (Especially if that someone is your mother-in-law, your colleague, your roommate, or any other person who has gotten good at extracting from you.)
This is also where healthy boundaries stop feeling abstract and start feeling concrete. Reading this takes seven minutes. Doing it requires you to recognize, in real time, whether someone is taking from you, and to set a limit while your nervous system is screaming at you to back down because backing down is what you have done your whole life. Frameworks live on the page. The work of applying them in your actual relationship, with your actual mother-in-law, in real time, that is the work my team does with people every day.
This is what coaching with our team actually is. Not lectures. Not generic advice. A real ongoing relationship with someone who knows your specific patterns and is paying attention to your actual life. The first conversation is free.
Schedule a free consultation →Why Reading This Article Probably Isn’t Enough
I want to be honest with you about something, because I have been doing this work for over twenty years and I owe you the truth. The frameworks I just walked you through are real. They work. People use them and lives change because of them. But I would be doing you a disservice if I let you close this article thinking that reading it was the work.
Here is what almost always happens. You read an article like this one. Something clicks. You feel a little hopeful. You make a mental note that next time it comes up, this time, you are going to try the new approach. And then it comes up. And your nervous system does what it has done for thirty years. And you find yourself in the same fight you have been having with the same person for a decade, wondering why nothing changed. (Does that sound familiar? It is almost universal.)
The reason is not that you are unmotivated. The reason is not that you are broken or untrainable. The reason is that you are trying to override an entire pattern, by yourself, in the middle of the moment that pattern is most active. That is the hardest possible time to do a new behavior. Your alarm is on. Your prefrontal cortex is partially offline. You are running on the autopilot you built when you were fourteen. It is almost impossible to do alone. And that is not a moral failing. That is how nervous systems work.
What works is having someone in your corner who knows your specific patterns. Someone you can text after a hard conversation went sideways and get a response that helps you debrief instead of spiral. Someone who can help you script the next conversation in your own actual words. Someone who is paying attention to your life, who remembers the names of the people you are stuck with, and who is invested in helping you do this differently next time. That is what coaching with the people on my team actually is.
If something in this article landed somewhere specific — like, you put your phone down for a second and thought “yes, that is what is happening with my sister” or “that is exactly the thing with my boss” — that is the signal to talk to someone. We do free first conversations for exactly this. No pressure. No commitment. Just a real conversation about what is actually going on for you and whether what we do here might help. You do not have to be in crisis to reach out, my friend. That is exactly what the first conversation is for.
How Do I Change a Difficult Relationship When the Other Person Does Not Want To?
Slowly, with small consistent gestures, with no expectation of anything in return, over weeks or months. The mechanism is reciprocity, and it works for the same reason it has always worked: the human nervous system is built to respond to genuine generosity. But you have to give it time, and you have to mean it.
Here is the story that anchors this for me, because it is the funniest moment in the whole episode and also the most useful. Attia had a neighbor who, on the actual day she moved into her dream house, came out of his house and lectured her about how her driveway and well easements were on his property. He ruined her move-in day. Every time she drove down her own driveway after that, he tried to flag her down for another lecture. He became, in her words, her first adult enemy. Her literal nemesis. (Don’t you love that. We all have one.) Her mother, who had been telling Attia for years about reciprocity in her own life as an immigrant, finally said: it is a hot day. Take him a glass of lemonade. Attia thought it was ridiculous. She did it anyway.
The neighbor was so shocked he almost would not take the glass. But they had a real conversation. Attia walked back into her own house and realized something had shifted, not in him, but in her. The version of him that lived in her head was now smaller. Over the next several months she kept doing it. Cherries from her tree. Apples. Small things. A year later, yes, a year, she actually needed another easement from him, and he gave it to her. The point of the lemonade was not to set up a future request. The point of the lemonade was to slowly reset what kind of relationship was possible. The easement was a downstream effect.
I want to be honest about the limit of this approach, because I think it matters. Reciprocity is not a magic spell. Some people are genuinely takers. Some people are genuinely cruel. You do not owe anyone an indefinite stream of gestures while they continue to harm you. But for the relationships in your life that are stuck rather than abusive (the in-law dynamic, the coworker, the neighbor, the long-term friend who has drifted into resentment, the sister you have not really been able to talk to since 2019), small consistent generosity, offered without an agenda, is genuinely one of the most underused tools in the world. Most of us never try it because it feels too small to work. The same is true of basic communication skills. Try it for a month. Tell me what happens.
The relationships in your life that are worth saving deserve the same attention you would give your career or your health. (Maybe more. They are doing more for you and against you than your career is.) If one of them is on your mind right now — the marriage, the in-law, the coworker, the friend who has drifted — and you have been trying to fix it on your own and getting nowhere, that is exactly the kind of situation our team works with every day. The first conversation is free.
I hope something in this conversation gave you something useful. If it did, the most generous thing you can do is share it with the friend who came to mind while you were reading.
xoxo,
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby
About this episode’s experts
Attia Qureshi
Teaches negotiation at the University of Michigan’s Ford School of Public Policy and previously taught at MIT Sloan and Ross. Formerly with the U.S. State Department in active conflict zones, including Colombia. Co-author of Never Settle: Persuasion and Negotiation Skills to Get What You Want (Simon Acumen, 2026), with foreword by Sheila Heen and endorsements from Daniel Pink, Robert Cialdini, Chris Voss, and Eric Barker.
Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby
Licensed psychologist, marriage and family therapist, and Board Certified Coach. Founder of Growing Self Counseling & Coaching. Host of the Love, Happiness & Success podcast. 25+ years of clinical practice. Creator of the Growing Self Institute, where she trains licensed mental health professionals in evidence-based coaching psychology.
Resources Dr. Lisa Talked About in This Episode
Sources cited in this episode
- Cialdini, R. B. (2021). Influence, New and Expanded: The Psychology of Persuasion. New York: Harper Business. https://www.harpercollins.com/products/influence-new-and-expanded-robert-b-cialdini
- Fisher, R., Ury, W., & Patton, B. (2011). Getting to Yes: Negotiating Agreement Without Giving In (3rd ed.). New York: Penguin Books. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/319738/getting-to-yes-by-roger-fisher-and-william-ury/
- Grant, A. (2013). Give and Take: Why Helping Others Drives Our Success. New York: Penguin Books. https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/308958/give-and-take-by-adam-grant/
- Neale, M. A., & Bazerman, M. H. (1991). Cognition and Rationality in Negotiation. New York: The Free Press.



