How to Communicate With Your Partner Without Fighting

Brandy: We fall into these patterns because we’re emotionally reacting to something our partner says. Our emotional reaction can get in the way of our ability to hear and empathize.

Dr. Lisa: Can I tell you a secret? Pretty much everybody who darkens my door for marriage counseling or relationship coaching, they’re leading with, “We can’t communicate. We have a communication problem.” The thing that’s always so interesting to me is that this is almost always people who are fantastic communicators in pretty much every other area of life, like work, friends, family. But something is going on in that interaction with your partner that is leading things to break down, feel frustrating, or just come to a standstill.

Brandy: If I come from a family where communication was being very loud and talking over each other and criticizing, and my partner comes from a family where they don’t talk about their feelings and we don’t talk about conflict, when we come together, we create this dynamic that we’re not understanding. “Well, why don’t you communicate the way I do? This is how we communicate.”

Dr. Lisa: So on today’s episode of Love, Happiness and Success, we are doing a deep dive into things that happen in communication with our intimate partners, to get visibility into the nature of the problem so that you have an effective solution. My hope is that by the end of our time together today, you have some concrete strategies that you can put into practice today to help the communication in your relationship start feeling easier.

Brandy: There are some things in here that, yes, may not feel good for my partner, but the way they communicate looks very different than the way I communicate, and we need to have an understanding of that. I think that’s what’s going to help us come together and bridge that gap.

Dr. Lisa: And welcome. If this is your first time tuning in, I’m Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. My background: I am a psychologist, I’m a marriage and family therapist, and I’m also a very proud board-certified coach, which means that I take all these deep, dark ideas and then translate them into actionable strategies that support you in having better relationships, developing yourself as a person, and also attaining the career goals that feel exciting to you.

And I could not be more excited today to introduce a very special guest, my friend and colleague Brandy Buckner. Like me, Brandy is an MFT who specializes in coaching strategies that move insight into action and help couples take what they are learning in the room and translate it to results outside. And Brandy, you’re a communication expert.

Brandy: Yeah, we have a lot to talk about.

Dr. Lisa: Let’s just take it from the top. I mean, we both hear so many stories about communication gone wrong, with so many of the couples and also individuals, for that matter, who are in relationships, and their primary complaint is, “We cannot talk to each other.” Would you just start by taking us into why this type of communication, the communication with our partners, can feel so much more fraught than literally anybody else we talk to? What’s going on?

Brandy: Yeah. I get a lot of couples that come in to work on their communication. A lot of the times I hear them say things like, “I don’t feel heard or understood by my partner. Any time we are trying to have a conversation, it turns into a fight. My feelings get dismissed,” or they feel like their feelings don’t matter. And when this happens, they get stuck in this pattern where it just kind of feels like they’re fighting for that space to be heard and understood by the person that I care about the most. I just want you to hear me. And when this continues over time, the relationship can feel emotionally unsafe for them, for one or both of them. It can feel disconnected, and it can feel even isolating for them.

Dr. Lisa: Well, this is interesting, though, because you’re bringing up a really good point. We think of communication as the content, right? Like what people are saying literally with their words. But what you’re saying is, no, it’s actually a vibe. People want to feel a certain way. It’s not the words, the information. It’s the experience. Is that it?

Brandy: Exactly.

Dr. Lisa: All right. So take us more deeply into this, because really what you’re saying is, and I’ve experienced this in my relationship and with other people, people can say what are objectively the correct words in the correct order, but the tone, or how you feel in that exchange, that changes everything.

Brandy: Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa: So take us more deeply into that. I mean, why does that have so much power if it’s not really about what’s being said?

Brandy: I think it’s because, as we’re talking about, it’s the feeling. Like, I want to feel connected to you. I want to feel safe with you. And in order to feel that, I need to know you’re here for me. I need to know you care about what I’m feeling, what I’m going through, and my concerns.

And a lot of times when our communication feels disconnected, what we’re actually seeing in that is we’re speaking over each other. We’re trying to convince our partner that they misunderstood me, and they shouldn’t feel that way. My intent, if you only knew what I was trying to say, then you wouldn’t feel that way. So we kind of gloss over those feelings because we’re trying to justify where we’re coming from. And we can feel defensive, and now the conversation turns into defending myself or justifying, or we shut down, because it doesn’t feel safe for me, so I disengage from the conversation. And our emotions can escalate in these times, so the conversation can turn into a fight. And then again, it doesn’t feel connected. It doesn’t feel safe for me.

Dr. Lisa: There is so much to unpack here, Brandy, first of all, and I’m so grateful that you are here to guide us through all of this, because people, I’m sure, are having the same reaction that I am, that really this is so multidimensional.

But can I also just say out loud: in your experience, is this also the reason why many people who are in these moments, in these situations with their partner where things are going sideways, where it feels so confusing and so frustrating, because there are these totally different operating systems, and you can say, “No, what I am saying right now is factually accurate. This is true. This happened.” It’s like a math problem. “And I am operating in objective reality, so you need to understand blah, blah, blah,” where the other person is fighting for a totally different thing that maybe the other person is not aware of at all, which is how this feels. Do you see me? Do you care about me? Do I feel loved? Is that what you see happening here a lot of times around the disconnect?

Brandy: I think sometimes that can happen, absolutely. I think thinking about, like, why do we fall into these patterns? And a lot of times we don’t even realize we’re doing it. And I think that’s an important thing to acknowledge, is we’re not going into these conversations with “I don’t care about your feelings,” or “I don’t want to hear what you have to say.”

Brandy: We just are unintentionally getting stuck into these patterns. And it can come from a couple of places. A lot of times we have two different types of communication styles. What we learn growing up really impacts that. Watching our parents communicate, or other people in our lives, like how they communicated.

If I come from a family where communication was being very loud, and talking over each other, and criticizing, and my partner comes from a family where they don’t talk about their feelings, and we don’t talk about conflict, and when we come together, we create this dynamic that we’re not understanding. “Well, why don’t you communicate the way I do? This is how we communicate.” And it’s just that we didn’t learn some of these things, or we have different ways of communicating, and they come into this dynamic that just doesn’t work for us.

Or another thing that can happen is that we fall into these patterns because we’re emotionally reacting to something our partner says. Our emotional reaction can get in the way of our ability to hear and empathize with our partner and their experience.

Dr. Lisa: Yes, I can relate to getting really activated. You get so focused on your own experience, it’s really hard to have empathy for somebody else if you feel like you’re being especially hurt or disrespected. That’s what you see.

Brandy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can absolutely relate to that too, in my own relationship. That is definitely something that can happen for me.

Dr. Lisa: And I definitely want to hear all of your ideas about solutions and how to resolve this, but I’m so glad we’re actually spending some time here, Brandy, really exploring what actually is happening when things go sideways. Because I think without this depth of understanding, it can be really easy for people to go to superficial solutions, and try to, what’s the word, technique their way out of it without really getting why things are happening at all. And so I feel that always the first step in understanding and changing a behavior is that self-awareness piece. So I just really appreciate you talking us through this.

Can we go back to something that I thought was so important, what you said a minute ago, related to how we learned what communication should be in our families of origin? And relatedly, I think how easy it is for all of us to then impose our inherited ideas about what communication should be onto our partners and be like, “You’re doing it wrong.” Do you see that? And are people actually doing it wrong, or are there totally valid ways of communicating that are just different and creating hurt feelings?

Brandy: Yeah, absolutely. I think I see that a lot. We think, “Well, this is the way we should be communicating. This is how it’s done, and my partner is doing it wrong.” When the reality is there are different ways for us to communicate. And there are some things in here that, yes, may not feel good for my partner, but the way they communicate looks very different than the way I communicate, and we need to have an understanding of that. I think that’s what’s going to help us come together and bridge that gap.

Dr. Lisa: And that’s so valuable, because I think before you really do that, to your point a minute ago, people get upset. Their feelings get hurt. They get emotionally activated. And so I think the type of exploration you’re advising is to be like, “Oh, maybe not personalize this quite as much. Maybe my partner isn’t behaving this way because of me. Maybe this is how they were socialized to communicate.” And that even though the same thing is happening, it could take some of the energy out of it.

Brandy: Absolutely. I think that’s a good point of, like, changing how you’re seeing that this isn’t about them attacking me or dismissing me. This is how they communicate. And we’re communicating differently, and that’s why we can’t get on the same page. And just having that awareness that it just looks different for us, I think, can ease that and turn it into, instead of a me versus you, it’s a we. And how do we come together to balance out our communication styles and what this looks like for us, so that we can connect instead of disconnecting?

Dr. Lisa: Brandy, thank you for just shining a light on all this stuff that can really get hidden in the fog of war, so to speak. Everybody’s upset. Nobody is thinking about any of these things. And just in this calm space, to be like, “You might consider,” you know, these things I think are so helpful.

Let’s assume, I think for the most part, that most people listening are familiar with the general concept of attachment styles, meaning that our life experiences shape our expectations of ourselves and other people. And some of this can happen through early attachment experiences with our parents or caregivers, obviously, but also I think it’s interesting that the research shows that our attachment styles continue to develop across our lifespan, including in experiences that we have with friends and romantic partners, through early adulthood and beyond.

So this is not necessarily a stable thing. Although when people have extreme experiences in early childhood, there does tend to be more rigidity around attachment orientations that can start to create problems in relationships. But beyond that, I think all of us tend to fall on one side of that bell curve or the other. So tell us more about this and how it influences communication.

Brandy: Yeah. So looking at your attachment style: if one partner’s more anxious, they’re the one in this communication that’s going to want to pursue and talk about it, and might get more emotionally reactive. Where if the other partner’s more avoidant, that’s the person that when we’re in communication and it doesn’t start feeling good, I’m going to shut down more. I’m going to disengage from the conversation. And I think about looking at some of the couples I have, and even my own relationship and experience with attachment styles, I tend to lean more onto the avoidant side.

Dr. Lisa: Me too. I think avoidant people get a bad reputation, honestly. I guess I relate to that.

Brandy: Absolutely. So for me and my partner, what that can look like is absolutely I’m the one that I have to really catch myself and realize, “Okay, Brandy, you’re shutting down.” Because that is my go-to. When things don’t feel good for me in our conversation, I want to shut down, and my partner’s like, “Nope, let’s talk about this. We gotta get through it. We gotta work through it.” And I’m like, “No, no, no, that doesn’t sound good for me.” No, thank you. And so you see this dynamic happen where I push away and he pursues. And the more he pursues, the more I push away, and then at the end of it we’re both feeling not good about the situation, and we got nowhere.

Dr. Lisa: Can I ask you another question? I hope this isn’t too personal. You ask me personal questions too. I’ll go to all the places with you, Brandy. The other thing that I’m curious about: I think that my natural orientation is definitely towards avoidance. I’m not gonna trust people right off the bat. I will tend to kind of like, “Never mind. I’ll show myself out,” kind of.

But so I think that is natural. I can carry that into different types of relationships, and that’s one way to identify really your attachment styles. Like, how do you show up with all humans, not just your partner? But interestingly, with different people, we can flip that. There’s something related to relational dynamics. I would wonder if you ever had some kind of a connection with maybe a friend or a family member or somebody who had a style that was even more withdrawn than you, that you would find yourself in that role of pursuer because of that desire to connect. I mean, I know that that’s happened to me as well. Like, “Wait, you’re not gonna talk to me? Oh, yes you are.” Have you noticed that in yourself or in your clients?

Brandy: Oh, yeah, absolutely, definitely in myself. When I look back at some other relationships I’ve had, even previous romantic relationships or even friendships, where I have had a situation where they are more avoidant than I am, I’m like, “What’s happening here? I’m the one that’s supposed to distance, not you.”

Dr. Lisa: Right. I’m just gonna text him again.

Brandy: And it’s interesting because it does shift that for you, of feeling like, “Okay, well now I have to pursue a little bit because they’re not gonna do it.” Or on the other end of this, I’ve had some relationships, specifically some really great friendships, where they’ve been more on the secure side, and that’s helped me kind of get out of that avoidance and feel like, “Oh, this is a safe place. I can move a little bit towards being secure and opening up and not pushing away.” So I see that happen in a lot of different areas in my relationships, and I see that a lot with couples that I work with as well.

Dr. Lisa: Well, okay then. With that in mind, would you be willing to go into maybe even some real world concrete examples? For our friends here listening in on this conversation about communication and thinking about, okay, but what do I do? I would love to hear your thoughts about what it might look like habitually if you have an avoidant versus maybe anxious attachment style, versus what you could say instead or how you could show up instead, just to begin to develop some awareness and some strategies that friends listening could even try today.

So goal number one is to think about what do you usually do when things get stressful, and then goal number two is, if this were working well, what would I be doing differently? And we’re highlighting the gap not to make you feel bad, but to highlight the opportunities for positive change. All right. So stressful situation. Somebody who’s like us, Brandy, tends to be more avoidant. Where do we go with that, that doesn’t work?

Brandy: Yeah. So what I would say is that really the first thing is really having that awareness and checking in with yourself. What’s happening for me? Paying attention. If this conversation is starting to feel a little too much for me, overwhelming, I start noticing that I’m pulling back. Taking that awareness of checking in: What’s going on with me? How am I feeling? What do I need in this moment?

And a lot of times when we’re feeling that overwhelm before the conversation starts to go sour or turns into a conflict, that’s when we need to have a break. Just take that break.

Brandy: For both sides, right? Talk with your partner about creating a timeout rule of like, “This is what we do when things aren’t feeling good in the conversation and they start going sour. We’re gonna take a 20-minute break. I’m gonna take some time alone to regulate and to bring myself back down, to have that space so that I can come back and be more present with the conversation.” As the avoidant, because that’s really what happens for us: I disengage, I shut down from the conversation.

Dr. Lisa: I mean, with your permission, and I certainly don’t want to push you into places that you don’t care to go, and I could talk about myself, but I think even on a deeper level of visibility: yes, wanting to pull back, or having all kinds of excuses why, “No, we shouldn’t talk about this right now,” blah, blah, blah. But the internal narrative can also go dark. “You’re being unreasonable right now. I can’t talk to you.” Or there are negative beliefs that go along with this that can lead an avoidant person to feel hopeless, that support that feeling of, “Yeah, I don’t want to. This doesn’t feel safe for me, and I need to just not.”

I feel like this is the important part, because here’s what matters, I think. We can look at communication patterns that might be associated with an avoidant style, things like criticism, contempt, even stonewalling, that shutting down. But people don’t have to be saying any of those things out loud for somebody to feel that with you, and that’s really where we need to go. So what do avoidant people need to know about how they’re making other people feel?

Brandy: Yeah, I think that’s a really good point. When I think about even in my own experience, that internal dialogue that may happen: my partner may say something that, when you really look at it, it’s triggering for me because it hits something in that avoidant side of me and from my past. But what’s really happening in my head is that they don’t care, or what I have to say isn’t important. Those kind of things can come up for me that put that wall up of, “No, no, no, I’m just gonna stop here,” or “I’m not going to continue in this conversation or in this space.” Because…

Brandy: …maybe I’m not worth continuing in that space. Those are the kind of things that I think can go on internally.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. And they’re so individual, and that’s why this is really worth reflection. Just as I’m hearing you talk about what comes up for you in those moments, I was also sort of sitting, and I hear everything that you’re saying, and just reflecting on my own, I think it’s like, “I don’t trust you right now. I don’t feel safe enough to stay in this place with you. I’m not trusting your judgment. You’re not in control of yourself.” This almost self-protective type piece.

But also, I think, also feeling alone, and like it doesn’t matter anyway. This isn’t going to change. I am on my own to figure this out. And yeah, exit stage right. And so these are just two examples that Brandy and I are sharing. But friends, think about what that inner dialogue turns into for you, and then some examples of what the communication needs to look like between you and yourself in order for this to be a little bit better.

Dr. Lisa: So what does your communication with yourself look like, Brandy, when you’re able to stay in the ring, or handle it differently?

Brandy: Yeah. I love that you brought that up, because I think that when we talk about communication in a relationship, it’s also the communication and relationship you have with yourself. That also needs to be addressed. And really, when I get in those moments, it’s having to remind myself like, “No, you’re not alone. You are worthy. This person does care about you. That’s why they’re here in this conversation and wanting to continue in this space with you.” So what you have to say does matter. How you feel does matter. It’s like I have to pep myself up in that moment of, it’s okay to stay here. You’re gonna be okay. This is gonna be a safe space for you. And your voice matters.

I’m curious for you, Lisa: what do you have to say to yourself?

Dr. Lisa: You know what? Honestly, Brandy, I’m getting so much out of this session with you. I haven’t actually thought about this before. And I think, okay, so for me, first of all, I think I need to be aware of my patterns and the way that I think, that is probably not always reality-based in these moments, and just check myself on that. Just because I’m telling myself this doesn’t mean that it’s true, which is hard to do. We all drink our own Kool-Aid, you know what I mean?

I also do need to respect the fact that I probably do need some time, and use my words and say, “This is not a productive conversation right now. Let’s both retreat and come back together.”

And I think the other thing that I need to tell myself, especially with my partner, with my husband, is that he does get very activated, so he’s definitely sort of a more emotional kind of processor than I am, and when he is really elevated, I know that he needs some time to calm down. And even if I do get upset, for me, I can usually bounce back within a fairly quick period of time. He might actually need like a day or three to sort of get to a better place. And so I’ve learned over the years that that needs to happen, and to have patience for that, but also to say that out loud and not try to solve problems when he’s really not feeling good. And to be able to reflect that back to him with a lot of empathy and compassion. Like, “This was really triggering for you. This is really upsetting for you, and I need to do better.”

Brandy: Yeah. It’s interesting, because I feel like when I look at me and my partner’s relationship, we’re the opposite of that. I need more time, and he gets over things a little bit quicker and is like, “Okay, how you doing?” And when I think about how I need to show up in those moments, it aligns with what you’re saying, of communicating, “We’re good. We’re gonna be okay. But I still need a little bit more time to just process what’s happening for me,” where he’s the one that’s ready to connect again and we’re fine and we’ll get over it. And just me being aware of that communication of, he just doesn’t realize that I might need a little bit more time, and I need to be able to communicate that to him. Like, “We’re gonna be fine, but right now I just need a couple extra, like five, ten minutes.”

Dr. Lisa: That’s so awesome. Well, and what another phenomenal takeaway here, Brandy, is that to be able to communicate effectively, above and beyond the techniques, like say these words and everything will be better. No, that is not what we’re talking about at all. We’re really going into these dimensions of deep self-understanding and habitual ways of relating with other people, with ourselves, and needing visibility into that, but also having visibility into our partner’s patterns, and this is the way my partner tends to process things. And that is something that can only develop over time, and I think with a lot of, I don’t know if observation is the right word, a desire to understand.

Brandy: Oh, yeah. Absolutely. I think looking at my relationship from the beginning to where we are now, seeing that over time, for me being able to, like, I want to know about what that looks like for him, and he wants to know what that looks like for me, too. And even now, sometimes I still get into these patterns. And what’s really cool that has happened for me and him is that he kind of gets on board with helping me, where he’ll kindly and compassionately point out like, “Hey, you’re shutting down. What’s going on? Come back to me.” He’ll say little things like that because he has that awareness of, “Okay, this is what she does.” And I’m like, “Oh, you’re right. I did. I am shutting down. Let me come back to you.” And it helps us. It actually brings us closer and connects, because we’re kind of doing that work together to realize what’s happening for each other.

Dr. Lisa: That’s so good. But again, the emotional safety that you two have earned with each other, because I’m also sitting here thinking, there could be another couple, another situation where that trust hasn’t been earned, and somebody could say, “Where did you just go?” And it could be received like…

Brandy: Criticism.

Dr. Lisa: Criticism. Not helpful right now. And that you’re allowing him to help you in that moment I think is really cool.

So, how can we support someone listening to this right now who might be more reactive when conflict or stress comes up in communication? Or also somebody who’s in a relationship with somebody who is more reactive. It’s helpful to understand that perspective. So where do we start with that?

Brandy: Yeah. Well, talking about someone who’s in a relationship with somebody who’s more reactive, it’s the same as we talked about with avoiding: it’s just having that desire to understand what’s happening for them, what’s going on.

When we look at someone who has more of an anxious attachment style, they tend to overthink and overanalyze every point in the conversation with my partner. What do they mean by this? Do they really care about me? They need a lot more of that reassurance: do they care, do they want to be here? And then sometimes when we do feel like you’re not hearing me, you’re not here for me, some of those lashing out behaviors may happen, or that pursuit can come out, where I need to know that you care about me, I need you to stay here with me.

And so just having that awareness of what’s going on for my partner. Again, on that side of, this isn’t about them attacking me or necessarily not trusting my words. This is something that is going on for them that I need to have some more compassion and understanding of, so that we can work through this together.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. See, this is where I think it can get hard, though, because in my experience, what you’re describing, and friends, if you feel like you can relate to this, let’s just talk through this all together. And this might not be true for everyone, but I think that sometimes when people have a more anxious orientation towards relationships, they can feel hurt or offended or bothered or unloved by things that might be subtle to someone else, that’s like somebody with my orientation, I don’t notice them at all.

And so I have said something or done something that has created offense unintentionally. I’m not setting out to hurt somebody, but that is still how it landed, and I need to take responsibility for that. But then the inside feeling is frequently so vulnerable. Do you care about me? Do you love me? I’m scared, I’m hurting. All vulnerable things. But what it looks like on the outside can be, to your point, lashing out, hostility, saying mean things. Anger. That’s what we see. So this is where it gets hard. And usually somebody who feels hurt feels justified in lashing out and being mean, because you’ve been mean to me, so why shouldn’t I?

Brandy: Exactly. And I think to that justification of, I feel so hurt, and you talk about that vulnerability piece. For them it’s, I’m feeling vulnerable. I’m letting it all out and sharing this with you, and you’re not holding that space for me. You’re not reaching back out for me. And so that can feel even more alone really for them, and isolating. That also plays into that, “Well, you’re not there for me, so this is how I’m going to…”

Brandy: …When you talk about that lashing out behavior, it’s like, “I need you to see me.” I’m doing this to gain that attention, for you to see me and to see how much I’m hurting and how much I need you. So it’s really not to hurt the other person sometimes. It’s so you can see how much pain I’m in, and that you can help me and be here for me.

Dr. Lisa: I know. This is so hard, though, because, and I hear you and I agree with you. And so, friends, what Brandy’s also talking about are the core tenets of something called emotionally focused couples therapy, where we can reinterpret what’s happening between two people as a manifestation of those attachment needs.

So when somebody is like, “How dare you? You said you were gonna unload the dishwasher, and you suck, and I hate you,” and blah, blah, blah, whatever it is. I’m being extra right now. But what we as marriage and family therapists do is work with a couple to help that person who’s feeling really escalated say, “I feel like you don’t care about me, and when you say you’re gonna do something and you don’t, it makes me feel very alone in this relationship.” That’s where we want to get people to, but that’s not what is happening in the moment. And I think for avoidant people like us, you’re being scary right now because, like, whatever, right?

So what would somebody who has that reflexive style need to know in order to have a better experience with their partner and be responsible for the communication that they’re putting into the system?

Brandy: Yeah, I think looking at, you really hit it, that underneath that lashing out, saying “You don’t care, you’re not helping me,” it’s really, “I need you,” and that vulnerability. And when you look at it in an EFT, or emotionally focused…

Brandy: …kind of frame, it’s we have those primary emotions and the secondary. And a lot of times we speak from that secondary, that anger. It feels less vulnerable. It feels safer for us. Versus if I can speak from the primary, that loneliness, that feeling unsafe, feeling like we’re not a team, my partner can hear me a lot better if I can just speak from that.

And it’s easier said than done, because I have to be vulnerable. I have to open that spot and hope that they reach out and take that. And so it’s really trying to speak from that primary emotion. What’s really happening for me? There might be some anger there. I might be frustrated. But what’s underneath that? What’s another emotion that is happening for me? Is it the hurt, the loneliness? And speaking from that, and telling my partner, “This is what I’m also feeling.”

Dr. Lisa: See, this is so good, and that’s going back to that parallel: what’s the conversation that you need to have with yourself before this, so you can have good communication with your partner. And so what I’m hearing is, for somebody who is more reactive, to be like, “Okay, slow down. Yes, you’re feeling angry in the moment, and what is this really about for you?” So almost like putting yourself in timeout and not actually saying everything you’re thinking and feeling in the moment, but saying, “I am gonna go journal,” or whatever it is, to be able to come back into that conversation and say, “Okay, so here’s how I’m really feeling,” and be able to articulate those primary emotions. That would be a strategy.

Brandy: Yeah, absolutely. I think one thing that we don’t acknowledge enough is that sometimes we don’t even know what we’re feeling. And so, again, taking that break and having that communication with the relationship you have with yourself, because sometimes I don’t even know that there’s something underneath that anger. I just know the anger. And so I need to take that time to sit: what else is happening, before I can even communicate it to my partner? If I don’t know, how are they gonna know?

Dr. Lisa: Totally. And that’s why the type of experience that you and I can create for people, to like, “Yeah, what am I feeling right now,” can be so valuable, because we have to get under our own hood in order to be able to manage these moments differently. And before you have the opportunity to do that, you legitimately do not know what’s going on. All you have is the surface stuff. So it’s powerful.

Okay, Brandy, so before I let you go, can you please share with us now a happy story of transformation that goes into the power of the system? So if anyone seeks to take responsibility for the way that they are showing up in their relationship, keeping their side of the street clean, starting with perhaps somebody who is more avoidant and who might not engage or talk about things, and go like, “Okay, bye.” What does it look like on the other side of the equation, even if I start being more emotionally present for somebody who does tend to be more reactive? How could that change the system for the better, whether or not they’re doing anything intentionally?

Brandy: Yeah, well, I think the thing to really think about with that, and what we’ve been talking about, is that checking in with yourself. A lot of times I’ll see couples come in at the start of our work together, and we’re really focused on…

Brandy: …if my partner would change these things. If they wouldn’t be so avoidant. If they wouldn’t be so anxious. And it’s really, as we talk about, get to know yourself first and see, how am I showing up in here, and how is that going to change the dynamic in the relationship?

And I’ve had so many couples, as we work together, be able to do that, where they’re starting to come in and recognize that. They’re no longer focused on how my partner shows up. I’m focused on how am I showing up. How can I check in with myself and start moving more towards conversations if I’m avoidant, instead of stepping away from them? If I’m anxious, how can I start understanding what my needs even are, first of all, and then be able to clearly communicate that to my partner?

And so that way, when we’re focused on ourselves, we actually give space to our partner to focus on themselves. And before we know it, we’re actually coming together, and the dynamic is shifting, versus us just being stuck on waiting for the other person. When we’re waiting for the other person, no one moves.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. “I’ll be nice to you when you X, Y, Z.” And what you’re saying is, do your own work and really focus on what you need to pay attention to. And I’ll just share. I think for me in my life, maybe one of the primary problems for me, when I think about it, is I’ll just kinda keep going. Do you know? Like, it’ll be fine, right? And what I have needed to do is like, no, not fine. Even though maybe it doesn’t bother me, I know that it bothers them, so if it’s important to them, it needs to be important to me. And if they’re upset, to seek to understand, and to slow down and sort of not dragonfly out of there, but sort of stay in the ring.

And I think that creates a type of experience that you’re talking about. Like, if my partner is not okay, it’s okay that they’re not okay. And that’s that emotional connection piece. What does that look like in your house when you’re doing your work that supports the type of communication that you wanna have, if it’s okay to ask?

Brandy: Yeah, absolutely. I think the initial thing for me is when something is said, I have to take that step back and be like, “Okay, you’re having a feeling. Recognize it. Something came up. That’s okay.” And recognize that you’re about to try to step away and be like, “No, no, forget it. We don’t have to talk about this.” Realize that it is important to talk about it and to continue, if I wanna have that connection. Because ultimately, even as an avoidant, when I really look at myself deep down, I do wanna have that connection. I do wanna feel close to you. It’s a fear, and it’s okay to have that fear, and the best way to get over that fear is to work through it instead of running away from it. So I think that’s the biggest thing that happens for me: keep going. At the end of this, it will actually be better.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, like sort of verbally talk yourself through, like, I’m okay. I’m all right.

So give us an example of maybe somebody that you’ve worked with where their work is that anxious reactivity that can manifest either in anger, sometimes control. What does it look like when they’re doing their own work, and how does that influence how the other person behaves in response?

Brandy: Yeah, so couples that I’ve had where they have that anxious-avoidant dynamic, one of the biggest things that I see come up, and how it’s changed for them, is when we talk about they’re in these conversations and it starts escalating. Typically a client who’s aligned more with anxious, they wanna keep going. And when we talk about setting that break for them, that’s really hard for someone who aligns more with anxious: “We can’t take a break. We need to work through this.”

And I’ve had some couples where it’s being able to sit with that and realize, like, you also need that break. That’s actually going to be beneficial for you and the relationship. And then being able to see that and take that break, but know that the break does not mean we’re not gonna talk about the conversation. We’re gonna come back. And so trusting that we’re gonna come back, and setting those times: “Okay, I know we’re gonna come back in 20 minutes.”

And when they do that, I’ve seen that transformation of like, “Oh yeah, I actually call breaks now,” where at the beginning they didn’t call breaks. They were like, “No, no, no, we don’t need breaks, because we’re not gonna come back to it.” Where now that client is like, “Oh yeah, I call breaks now, because I see that it helps me, and I see that it brings us closer together when we try again in the conversation.”

Dr. Lisa: I don’t want to upset anybody listening to this. I feel like, though, it needs to be said explicitly, and I say this as a marriage counselor and a relationship coach, and I don’t know that I would say this out loud to somebody in the room who’s having an experience, because I wouldn’t want them to feel emotionally unsafe with me. But assuming that everybody listening to this, we’re all all right, we’re in a neutral space, we can take in information.

I think that what I have seen be very transformational in my work with couples is when someone who does have that anxious or reactive orientation is able to own how they are experienced. Like, even though I feel very justified in how I’m acting right now, other people are experiencing me as aggressive, hostile, controlling, emotionally unsafe, and I need to calm down and come from that place of authentic vulnerability, because it’s not gonna go well if I keep doing this. And that’s, like, a hard thing to hold. I mean, do you disagree? And I’m saying it very bluntly. Again, I would not say that to somebody who’s having an experience in my office.

Brandy: Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. And going to how they have this need and this vulnerability of, I’m just telling you this. I think they don’t see that. And to have that awareness, or be able to hear it from your partner or somebody else, and have that clarity of like, “Oh, this is how I’m showing up.” And to be able to, like you said, own that and take accountability for that, I think that is a big piece of transformation, where they can start turning that and shifting of like, “Oh, this is actually how I’m showing up, and this is actually not helping.” It’s not helping the relationship, but it’s also not helping me get my needs met. If the goal for me is to get my needs met, the way I’m doing it is actually not helping. It’s actually distancing us more, and I’m feeling even more isolated at the end of it.

Dr. Lisa: This is so powerful, Brandy. And I know that our time is coming to a close here, and I have to let you go, but I’m so grateful for this conversation. And also, the last part of what we were just discussing is making me so aware that what we are talking about is not informational. It is not the technique. It is not what you say. It is not something that Claude is going to advise you to do. And I think that that is the power of what you are doing in your work with people, is that you are helping them have an experience that transforms their understanding, not just of their partner, but really of themselves, and creating this new awareness that is so incredibly vital in order to change communication for the better in any meaningful way.

So, happy to report our jobs are AI-safe, at least for the moment. But does that feel true to you, what I just said?

Brandy: Oh, it does. Yeah, it absolutely does. I think that those are things that we don’t always get said out loud, and clients specifically don’t realize, like, that’s really going deeper into the work to help you really make these changes and have a better relationship with yourself and with your partner. In any relationship, right? Even in friendships.

Dr. Lisa: Totally. Brandy, this has been so great. I mean, I just really appreciate your time here. Not to knock anybody, but on the show we have a diverse range of guests, and I only bring people on the show that have a lot of value to share with our community, and I always appreciate that. But my experience of talking with you today, you know, kind of like the sound bite, do these three things and your life will be transformed, and that sounds good on social media, in contrast to a practitioner like you who does this really deep work that is not an easy fix. And what we’re talking about is transformation that often occurs over months at least, and just the power and the value of what you’re doing day in and day out. And so thank you for everything you’re doing and for sharing your perspective with us today.

Brandy: Absolutely. Thank you for having me on. It’s been a pleasure.

Dr. Lisa: And so I will share, if anybody is interested in having a conversation about their experience in their relationship and getting Brandy’s superpowers in the room with them and their partner, to shine visibility into all of this, helping you to see each other and yourselves differently, she’s available. You can come to growingself.com/brandy, B-R-A-N-D-Y, and schedule a first free consultation just to get to know each other, see if it’s a good fit, and move forward from there.