Too Close to Home: Navigating Personal Challenges as a Therapist

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Too Close to Home: Navigating Personal Challenges as a Therapist

Hey there, incredible therapists! Today, let’s have a heart-to-heart about something that many of us encounter but don’t often talk about — when our clients’ struggles mirror our own. This can be one of the most challenging things about being a therapist. It’s like looking into a mirror and seeing not just your reflection but also your deepest challenges. This is about those times when therapy sessions feel ‘too close to home.’

Imagine this: you’re helping a young woman navigate the grief of a miscarriage, and it’s a pain you know all too intimately because you’ve been there — maybe recently. Or maybe even worse, you’ve just had a miscarriage and have a client who is over the moon excited about a healthy pregnancy. Or, you’re a couples therapist with a couple working on affair recovery, while grappling with the same betrayal in your own life. It’s not just a hypothetical scenario; it’s a reality many therapists face.

Navigating these sessions can feel like walking a tightrope. On one side, there’s the need to be fully present and supportive for your client. On the other, there’s your own pain, raw and demanding attention. How do you manage this delicate balance? How do you ensure you’re a sturdy support system for your clients when your own foundation feels shaken?

Keeping ‘Your Stuff’ Separate

The key lies in creating a mental and emotional container. It’s about ensuring you have healthy boundaries as a therapist and that your personal experiences don’t spill over and color your professional judgment. This isn’t about suppressing your feelings, but recognizing them and having strategies to keep them separate from your client’s experiences.

Here’s a therapist growth moment for you: How do you do that? What strategies do you use? Do you have a support group or mentor? Are you in your own therapy? Or, do you have a self management practice like journaling, or a spiritual practice that gives you a container for your own stuff so that you can fully inhabit the life experience of your client during sessions, while focusing on yourself and not your clients outside of sessions?

And just as important, it’s about seeking support for yourself. Therapists need therapists too! Whether it’s a colleague, a support group, or your own therapist, having someone to help you unpack and process your feelings is vital.
Especially as a helper, you need support. It is an unrealistic expectation of yourself to be there for others, soothe and comfort them, sometimes being vicariously traumatized in the process, and help them put themselves back together again without having that same kind of caring support in your own life.

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The Empathy vs. Impairment Dilemma

The big question is, can you still be an effective therapist when a client’s issue hits too close to home? Absolutely! Sometimes, having walked a similar path can deepen your empathy and understanding for your client. You might find it easier to offer guidance because you’ve been in their shoes. The trick is to ensure that your guidance is truly what they need, not what you wish someone had told you.

But, let’s face it, there are times when stepping back or even letting a therapy client go is the right call. Like the couples therapist dealing with personal betrayal – biases can sneak in, making it hard to maintain the unconditional positive regard necessary for effective therapy.

So, how do you know when it’s time to recuse yourself from a case? It’s about honest self-monitoring and perhaps getting a reality check from a colleague or supervisor. Are you finding it hard to separate your feelings from your client’s? Is your personal experience overshadowing your professional perspective? 

And, how much should you disclose to your clients? Self-disclosure in therapy is a tightrope walk of its own. Sharing your experiences can sometimes create a deeper connection. But, if your clients start feeling like they need to take care of you, that’s a red flag. Your role is to be their therapist, not the other way around. Use discernment to judge when self-disclosure would truly be of benefit to your client, and when it may hinder their growth and healing process.

Referring a Client when It’s Too Close to Home

Making the decision to refer a client because their situation is too close to your own isn’t a failure. It’s an act of bravery. It’s putting the client’s needs first, even when it’s hard. It’s about caring so much for their wellbeing that you’re willing to step aside to ensure they get the support they need.

So, dear therapists, remember this: You’re human. It’s okay to have moments when a client’s story hits too close to home. What matters is how you navigate these moments. By recognizing your limits, seeking support, and making ethical decisions, you’re not just taking care of yourself; you’re ensuring the best care for your clients. 

And, if you’re interested in being part of a therapist community where you’re always supported in doing the right thing, by yourself and by your clients, I encourage you to explore the group private practice opportunities at Growing Self

With love, 

Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby 

P.S. — Are you at risk of therapist burnout? Take my free quiz and find out. 

  • 00:00 The Impact of Personal Struggles on Therapists
  • 05:31 Navigating Personal Challenges as a Therapist
  • 11:39 Creating a Support System
  • 19:01 Empathy vs. Impairment
  • 27:48 Self-Monitoring and Boundaries
  • 31:16 Knowing When to Refer
  • 33:17 The Courage of Referring


Lisa Marie Bobby:

Being a courageous therapist, I think can always be a little harrowing, but especially when the things a client is talking about is hitting really close to home, when we are perhaps struggling with something difficult and personal, and it’s kind of similar to what our clients are going through. Impact us in an even deeper way than a regular therapeutic experience can.

This is real. It happens to all of us. It certainly happened to me more than a couple of times, and it’s something that we need to be talking about. And that’s why we’re going to tackle this subject on today’s episode of love, happiness, and success for therapists. I’m your host. I’m Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby.

I’m the founder of Growing Self Counseling and Coaching. And I have been practicing as a therapist now for a long time, just like you. I’m a licensed psychologist. I’m a licensed marriage and family therapist. I’m also a board certified coach. That’s very important. part of my practice. Um, and I am also a clinical supervisor and my, my role really, I think, especially in the recent years of my career is supporting clinicians just like you around how do we not just survive this, This chosen profession that can be so meaningful and so rewarding, but that is really so challenging on deep levels that in a different way, like normal careers, I mean, what we do is really different.

Um, but I’ve made it my personal mission to provide support and care for clinicians. Both within my practice at growing self, um, but that’s also where this podcast is coming from, you know, talking to you about the things that you’re going through, the things that you care about to provide you with support and guidance and encouragement and direction, uh, to help you again, be, be happy and successful and enjoy this amazing career path that you and I have chosen.

So that’s what we’re doing here every week. And today I really did want to talk about this challenging experience that we all face sooner or later. Um, when we are not fully okay and serving as a therapist to somebody else, um, and how this can be intensified. When our clients struggles are mirroring our own, you know, those moments can be a little like looking into a mirror and seeing, um, ourselves reflected back in our clients, but also like some of our own deepest challenges.

Um, and, and what to do about this, because I think as ethical and courageous therapists, we also need to be very self aware and making decisions around, you know, um, how can I set my own stuff aside and be here now with my client for my client and really be what my client needs and deserves. So how, how do I do that?

Or also having the self awareness and recognition to be able to say, maybe I actually can’t do that and be that person for this client, given what I’m going through and given what they’re going through. And so how do I navigate this situation ethically for the benefit of my client and, and also to, I mean, you know, um, that, that your own wellbeing, I do think needs to be factored into the equation as well.

So these are all variables that we need to be thinking about and we’ll be addressing these on today’s episode. I hope that by the end of our time together, you’ll have a little bit of. Clarity, uh, inside of yourself, but also I hope a little bit of guidance around how to make some of these decisions. Not if, but when it comes up for you again, right?

So, um, they’re all situations, right? I went when our client’s story is kind of our story. So imagine, uh, and I have been in this situation, I have had supervisees in this situation, but imagine you are a young woman. And you are also a therapist who is helping another young woman navigate the grief of a miscarriage, for example, and that perhaps hypothetically you are maybe a month or two out from your own miscarriage.

Uh, or you are currently pregnant and there are complications. Things aren’t going well. Having a miscarriage, losing the pregnancy is your worst fear. And here you are sitting with somebody who is going through that experience. That might be very, very triggering for you, right? Um, Additionally, it has to be said, perhaps you are going through this very challenging life experience and you’re working with a young woman or a couple who is pregnant and it’s going really well for them and they’re over the moon and talking about all the things and that in itself can be highly triggering for you.

Um, this can look like so many different things. You’re a couple’s therapist working with a couple on a fair recovery while grappling with the same betrayal in your own life, or perhaps staring down the barrel of a divorce while you’re working with a premarital client. I mean, these are not hypothetical scenarios.

These are realities that we can face because we are humans with our own life experiences, with our own challenges and. Our job is to help other people with their own personal concerns and personal experiences and their own challenges or hopes and dreams. But there’s always this intersectionality between what our clients are dealing with and what we are dealing with.

And it becomes this emotional tightrope sometimes. Um, on the one side, we have the need to be fully present and supportive for our clients and be active. Empathetic for them, right? Our job is to see the world through our client’s eyes and to be thinking not about how we feel, but about how they feel, how they see the world, their psychology, um, how things make sense to them, not us, right?

And so there’s this very selfless goal Quality like we’re, we’re empaths, right? We have to, we have to go in and really be inhabiting other people’s lived experience and help them find their way through. Where are the guides or the leaders for their own, their growth process, but like, it’s about them, not us at the same time, we can’t completely disconnect ourselves from ourselves.

And we may be experiencing. Intense pain at sometimes during sessions when we’re supposed to be there for other people can feel raw and it can really, um, be difficult when we’re having intense internal experiences, you know, um, I have, I have been in this situation again more than one time, but, you know, there was, um, A time shortly after my, my mother died, uh, it was a traumatic loss.

It happened suddenly. She she got COVID we think in, you know, early 2020, um, but it wasn’t one of those things where she was on a ventilator for months. She it was like a blood clot, like a massive heart attack type deal. And it was very sudden. It was incredibly traumatic. Um, And I wasn’t okay, like a significant amount of time after that, and I had stuff to do and probably in retrospect, I went back to it too soon.

But within, you know, a week or two, probably I was in there with clients. I was working with supervisees and I think for the most part, I did an okay job. I think if anything, I felt, um, more sort of emotionally. porous, like almost better able to have empathy for the sadness of my clients. Um, but I also wasn’t at that time seeing a client who was going through their own grief and loss process.

And I’m not sure how that would have gone if I had been, that may have gone into red zone territory for me potentially. Um, and so again, it can be. difficult to, to manage. It takes a lot of self awareness, but it is also inevitable that we’re going to be in these situations. And so part of this, um, is thinking, I think in advance, like, all right, this is going to be happening to me sooner or later, if it isn’t right now.

And thinking about how do I then create the kind of support system around my Self and also be creating, um, almost an action plan for clients when we’re going through something foundationally difficult that makes it feel like it’s hard for us to be human, what our clients need. So there are a couple of different strategies here.

I mean, one strategy, and I think the one that can feel the simplest and in some ways the easiest, I think it’s the one that we hope for is that we are strong enough to create a mental and emotional container for ourselves and also for our clients that helps us keep our stuff separate enough so that it doesn’t create problems.

And the key here, I think, um, Is creating this, this separation, this container that needs to be fairly intentional so that we have a lot of awareness around what is my stuff and can ensure that our personal experiences, our own thoughts, feelings, values, preferences, hopes and dreams, pain points, aren’t spilling over and coloring our professional judgment in a way that isn’t helpful.

For our clients. And I just, I do want to say that this isn’t about suppressing our own feelings, but it is about recognizing them and having strategies to keep them separate from our client’s own experiences. So, so here’s like a growth moment. I think for all of us, you know, how do we do that? What are the strategies that we can use for that?

Um, one of the questions I would ask is, you know, do you have currently a support group, a professional consultation group, a mentor, are you in your own therapy? And I think I ask because one of the most powerful and important things that we can all do is in these moments, be reaching out to our support community to say courageously and honestly.

I’m not okay. I have some stuff going on and I could use some extra support from you or from the group right now in order to just process some of this, but also make sure that I am doing what I need to do to be the person that my client needs me to be, uh, being in your own therapy can be extremely important during these situations, but also even, um, a self management process.

Practice like journaling or spiritual practice that helps you, you know, uh, feel grounded. And like you’re getting your own needs met to the degree that you can put your things aside in order to fully inhabit the life experience of your client. I’ll also say that, you know, there can definitely be life circumstances that can impact us in this way and require this kind of action plan.

So, you know, going through grief and loss or, um, Other circumstantial kinds of things, but also I’ve seen, and this, this is, this is tougher. It is when clinicians are, um, going through a depressive episode or dealing with an anxiety disorder that. changes the way that they think, the way they feel, the way they perceive the world, they’re feeling anxious and threatened and hyper vigilant because of their own untreated mental health stuff, or if they are feeling hopeless and helpless and overwhelmed and, um, You know, self self critical and seeing the world through crap colored glasses because of their own major depressive episode, um, that is really difficult because it can lead to feelings of hopelessness and helplessness and overwhelm with clients.

And I think also those. Um, situations can be more difficult for us to be managing and dealing with, because as we all know, you’re not always aware when you are, uh, moving into a depressive episode, the self defeating thoughts, this pessimistic view of the world, it just feels true. Right. That’s, that’s what happens to our clients.

I think it’s easier to see it sometimes than others, but that’s also what happens to us, you know, and to have the humility or the self awareness to be like, Oh my God, I kind of hate everybody right now. I am angry. I feel really like defeated. And I think I’m bringing this kind of energy into my conversations with clients.

I’m not okay. Right. But the first step is to be able to say that out loud to yourself. And then the second step is to say that out loud to somebody who is in a position to be able to help you. And this is why part of our job is to build and cultivate. Professional support networks and communities prior to needing one really, right?

Like, as we go about this, we need to be linked up to other people because we are going to need them and they’re going to need us. You know, that’s part of the deal is to be that person for others. So like, that’s why, for example, in my practice of growing self, one of the foundational things that we do as a community, we call them home based groups, and they are regular just consultation groups that are facilitated, you know, sometimes we’re talking about different topics, but in addition to those like regularly scheduled meetings, um, Everybody’s like on speed dial.

You have the small group of people that you’ve come to know and love and trust and to have that community of support, say, I need, is anybody available? Right. And you have like your little bouquet of four or five people that are like, yeah, I’m right here and can, can connect and. Yeah. And be there for you, but also, you know, to have the support of a group that really knows you and loves you and can be there to support you, but also be there to challenge you too.

Because I think that part of a really powerful support group experience is the challenge, right? For somebody to say, I know that you really want to keep working and you want to power through this. And I know you’re a strong person and yes, maybe you can. And are you sure that’s a good idea? Because let me tell you what I also see happening right here that maybe you can’t see yourself right now.

I mean, my goodness, for us to be fortunate enough to have those kinds of people in our lives is amazing. So, um, If you’re even just like listening to this podcast and you’re not going through something right now, like that is fantastic. But to still be thinking about, um, you know, who, who is my network? If I did run into trouble, who are my people?

And what do I need to do to build that? If I’m in a solo private practice, how could I create that for myself? If I’m in an agency or, um, clinic kind of setting is, is Is something like that available that I could plug into? Um, or, I mean, is that a really good argument for you as you’re thinking about it?

So like, you know what, maybe I do need to be part of a group private practice where like we’re doing this on the reg and that kind of culture is. Is baked into the system for me, there’s a culture of support in the group private practice that I want to align with. So all of those are important things to be considering and, and creating because as helpers, I mean, we, we need support.

I know that instinctively we have all this energy that we want to like give away, but, but we have been Got to be, um, in community with people who are filling our cup up as well, because if you’re an island and have all this energy going out and nothing coming back into you, it’s just a matter of time before you become burned out and depleted to the point where it is hard to function in this role.

So, um, none of us, Can do this alone. We have to have a support system now. Um, in addition to that, we need also to dig in a little bit more deeply to this difference between empathy, uh, versus impairment. Right. Like thinking about how can I still be helpful to people? Um, how is my connection with what it actually feels like to go through some of these things, enhancing my empathy?

Empathy for other people, how is this potentially helping me be more compassionate and insightful and understanding versus what is it not helpful? When maybe do I think I know how somebody feels because I am having big feelings, but. I’m actually not having empathy for them. I’m connected to myself right now to the degree that it is impairing my ability to really feel the lived experience of another person that can be very difficult to tease apart.

And it’s a very important ethical issue for us. Like how can we be effective when a client stuff is hitting a little too close to home? And so, you know, and I think I think it’s just really, uh, sometimes a simple of asking ourselves those questions, but also talking about it, journaling about it. Um, I do believe that having to a degree, you know, walked a similar path can deepen our empathy and our understanding, like, you know, going back to the example of my, my mother dying.

Um, I have been fortunate enough, and I, I Do you recognize that it is a privilege that that was the first major traumatic loss that I experienced? I mean, my, my grandparents had passed away, you know, pets, but it felt different when my mom died, it was closer. And certainly there can be even more challenging and traumatic kinds of deaths that.

That we go through, but, you know, um, until I lived through that life experience, I didn’t fully understand people who were going through a really significant loss of a loved one were, um, or experiencing. And, you know, there’s that, that quote, like, um, when, when someone you really love dies, Part of that experience is that you, you realize that there was this secret club all along and now you’re a member, didn’t want to be a member, but hey, you’re in and it comes from the way that there are some people in your life that have lived through something like that, the way that they show up, the way that they interact with you, the things that they say to you, the things that they do feel very different than the, Yeah.

Very good intentions of someone who care about you a lot, but haven’t actually lived through it. It feels different. And I personally only experienced that after my mom passed away and noticing like how people interacted with me. It was like, wow. So in some ways, I felt very grateful to have, um, earned.

The right to that understanding and I do think that that has impacted my work as a therapist in really positive ways because of that empathy. Um, I feel better able to guide that process, but. Again, it is also still very crucial for me to be ensuring that I am showing up in a way that is genuinely in alignment with what my client is leading, uh, needing rather, and that, um, I’m very sensitive to the fact that their process, their needs are going to be very different from what I am.

Needed and how I dealt with things personally. So again, we have to have empathy, but also like be pulling ourselves apart from, from, um, you know, like, where do I stop? And you start. And in addition to that, you know, the empathy pieces, the life experiences that do help us deepen our understanding of others.

We have to face it. I mean, there are also times when stepping back is the right call. Going back to one of our examples, you know, a couple’s counselor working with a couple trying to repair after an affair, who’s dealing with a personal betrayal, like their biases can sneak in. Um, it might be very angry.

Right. Uh, that might make that very hard to maintain unconditional positive regard for both people in the dyad they’re working with, which is necessary for effective therapy for it to work. Um, I have also, uh, you know, been in relationship with therapists who were depressed to the point that they really weren’t functioning very well.

Um, they were becoming overwhelmed with intense, dark emotions in their sessions with clients to the point that it Became a barrier for the client to be able to do what they were there to do, um, clients began like caretaking the therapist’s emotions in the sessions. I mean, like, these things are real.

They happen. We need to address them, right? And so ethical decision making it is. It is an art and it comes to recognizing when it’s really too much. And so. Again, a piece of this being plugged into a community like, you know, in the case of the clinician I was telling you about that was depressed that actually did require intervention.

She was in a place where she couldn’t really see it. And so there needed to be a community to. Step in and and help her and I think that that is also a benefit of being in a group private practice where people are talking to each other. There’s enough of a personal relationship where people really know when things are getting problematic that there’s that visibility.

One of the risks of being in solo private practice is that lack of visibility that people don’t really know day to day what’s going on. What’s going on. And especially if you’re not talking about it, right. It’s an inherently isolating profession. Um, but in order to protect ourselves and our clients, there needs to be air and sunshine in it so that we have these moments that allow us to be healthy and also to be helped.

when we need help. Um, and self monitoring is also very important. Uh, and how do we do that? Again, I think one of the keys is noticing how we are feeling in sessions and having some kind of a personal practice in place. I mean, I’m a big journaler. So, um, you know, even like once a day, or certainly if there was a very difficult emotional moment in the session, giving yourself a little bit of time to sit down, Do some writing and be like, I had stuff coming up.

Here’s what I was thinking. Here’s what I was feeling. Um, I could feel myself beginning to get really upset or tears were coming or feeling really angry or feeling flooded in the moment. And I was really. Not present at that point, I lost what they were talking about. I was involved in my own thoughts. Um, or I noticed, uh, me talking to my client in a way that would be congruent with me, you know, talking to somebody in my personal life or me talking to myself and like, okay, I’m doing that right now.

And, and being aware that my, my personal experience is really overshadowing my professional. Perspective at this point. Um, so what do we do about this? When we notice we’re like, my container is leaking. We can certainly try to shore up the container. But also if, if we can’t, our choices are boundaries, um, and also we need to make some decisions about disclosure.

Generally speaking, I avoid personal disclosures unless it is highly relevant and extraordinarily brief. And for the purpose of illuminating some aspect of my client’s experience, I am very, very concerned when I hear about counselors or coaches talking about their own personal experiences and believing that something about sharing those stories would be helpful for their clients.

Um, sometimes it can potentially create a deeper connection. I think when there is a, uh, fears of shame or judgment in a client, if they may fear your judgment or, uh, you know, worry that that something that they’re going through is, um, unusually. Difficult. Um, I think that, that sometimes personal disclosure can really help with normalization.

So a client going through a very terrible loss experience and really not being well, I, if it is helpful, may potentially share, um, especially if they’re saying things like, what’s wrong with me? I just, I can’t stop crying is all I can think about. I feel like I can’t function, blah, blah, blah. So, you know, I, I might say, you know, that for probably.

A period of months after my mom died. I wasn’t really functioning either. I was going through the motions and, and I just wanted to normalize that experience for you. Of course, it looks different for everybody, but I think it is an unfair expectation. For you to believe that you should be okay after going through this kind of loss, but like that would be it.

That would be all that I would share and we are illuminating the fact that my client’s experience is normal and expected. Um, so moments like that and. I think that anytime we disclose something to a greater degree than that, uh, we are already in the red zone, but especially if we are going through something hard that is similar to what our clients might be experiencing and if we are not really okay, any disclosure, uh, runs.

Uh, not even a risk I would think you could expect for clients to take that on board and it changes the dynamic where they start feeling like they need to take care of you. I’m having these feelings about my pregnancy. I know that Lisa just went through a miscarriage, so I probably shouldn’t talk about my pregnancy experience because it might be upsetting to her.

We can’t do that your role is to be their therapist and to be there to support them. Not the other way around. This is a 1 way relationship it is. And so anytime that that starts to happen, or if you are really not able to. Be there for them. We need to refer and also embrace the victory of the referral.

Celebrate that as such a win and make sure that in your own mind, you are, um, Actively embracing and practicing the narrative that I am demonstrating courage. I am demonstrating my value of love and care because I am making an appropriate referral. This is not a failure. This is an act of bravery. This is you putting your client’s needs first.

Even when it is hard, it is about caring so much for their wellbeing that you’re willing to step aside to ensure that they get the support that they need. And this is the right thing to do. It’s also, um, and I just want to say this out loud. There is no shame in being a human. It’s okay. It is okay to have moments when you’re not okay or when a client story is really hitting too close to home.

Um, that it’s not a problem that those are happening. That is the experience of being a clinician sooner or later. And the fact that it’s happening is not the significant part. What matters is how we are all navigating these moments by recognizing our limits, being self aware, seeking support and making ethical decisions, including the decision to refer.

You’re not just taking care of yourself. You are truly ensuring the best care for your clients. Um, That I think goes above and beyond our professional obligations, even though those are true, I believe that this is a profoundly personal act of heroism and deeply Courageous. Truly. So, I just wanted to share that, that last thought and message with you.

And I hope that this conversation was helpful. You know, um, really one of my big intentions on this show is to be talking about things and shining a light on things that are so real for all of us, but that don’t always get the attention. Discussed certainly not in public forums, I would say, I mean, uh, if you’re lucky, if you’re connected with a great supervisor, a mentor, a consultation group, I mean, these are some of the things that we talk about, but, you know, part of the purpose of love, happiness and success for therapists is to be that, um, Putting things out into the air, starting conversations, creating a community of therapists who may not have the luxury and privilege of being plugged into those kinds of support systems so that, you know, we’re still, we’re still in this together.

And on that note, I would love to hear of your thoughts about this episode, if you have comments or questions, or I mean, if you feel comfortable even sharing, you know, a personal situation that you went through and how you dealt with it, or, um, I don’t know any strategies that you believe our community might want to hear.

I would so love to hear that. You can get in touch with me through my website, certainly hello at growingself. com. Um, if you want to hear, you know, follow up questions or topics related to this This or others, let me know. Also social media. Um, you can track me down at the social, uh, sorry, the growing self social media account.

So look for growing self on Facebook, Instagram. You can track me down on LinkedIn. Uh, I’m doing a lot of stuff on LinkedIn for this. Show that’s primarily where I’m hanging out. So Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby on LinkedIn. Um, and also if you come to growing self. com forward slash therapists, that is sort of entering the magic castle where I’m keeping all the content that I’m making for you.

So podcast playlist articles. Um, for this podcast and every other, you know, where there’s a post or there’s like a comment section, jump into the comments section to share your perspective, follow up questions, share your thoughts, tell your story. Um, again, I would love to hear it. And I think that your community would love to hear it too.

So on behalf of. Everybody, thank you for sharing and joining, joining the, uh, the collaboration. All right. So that’s it for today. Thank you for joining me and I will be back in touch with you next week with another episode of love, happiness and success for therapists. All right. Take care.

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