• 01:13 Understanding Therapist Burnout
  • 03:23 Personal Experiences with Burnout
  • 04:34 Defining Burnout
  • 08:22 Symptoms and Signs of Burnout
  • 13:00 Impact of Burnout on Therapists
  • 20:57 Strategies to Combat Burnout
  • 23:42 The Importance of Leadership
  • 31:05 Proactive Measures and Self-Care
  • 40:47 Conclusion and Resources

Why Therapists Are So Vulnerable to Burnout

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Why Therapists Are So Vulnerable to Burnout

No matter how much you love being a therapist, burnout is a threat that can steal your joy, energy, and passion. It is a phenomenon characterized by physical, emotional, and mental exhaustion, often stemming from prolonged periods of stress and overwhelming responsibilities. Unfortunately, it’s also a common part of being a therapist

As we delve into this comprehensive exploration of burnout within the therapy profession, we’ll discover strategies for prevention, delve into the unique vulnerabilities of therapists, and explore how internal shifts and strong boundaries as therapists can pave the way toward a more fulfilling practice.

If you would prefer to listen to this one, I’ve also recorded a podcast episode on this topic. You can find it on this page (player below), or on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What Is Burnout?

Burnout is a state of exhaustion, cynicism, detachment, and a diminished sense of personal accomplishment. It’s a response to chronic workplace stress that has not been successfully managed, leading to a depletion of energy, a loss of enthusiasm, and a sense of ineffectiveness.

The Symptoms of Burnout:

  • Exhaustion: A pervasive sense of fatigue and lack of energy.
  • Cynicism/Detachment: A growing sense of disconnection from one’s work or clients.
  • Reduced Performance/Apathy: A noticeable decline in productivity and the quality of work.
  • Mental/Emotional Distress: Feelings of hopelessness, sadness, and anxiety.
  • Questioning the Value of Work: A persistent doubt about the impact and importance of one’s professional efforts.

Burnout in Therapists

The very qualities that make an excellent therapist—empathy, compassion, and a genuine caring nature—are also what render these professionals vulnerable to burnout. The field requires therapists to navigate dark, often ambiguous situations, contributing to a sense of helplessness and disempowerment. We often struggle to unplug from our work at night, and might find ourselves ruminating about our therapy clients when we’re supposed to be recharging. 

The challenging dynamics of agency work and the pressure to provide medically necessary treatment further compound this vulnerability. Consequently, therapists may find themselves questioning if the emotional toll of their work is as good as it gets.

While specific statistics on the number of therapists abandoning the profession due to burnout are elusive, research indicates that job dissatisfaction and burnout are significant predictors of intentions to leave the field. The ongoing stress and emotional labor involved in therapy have led many professionals to reduce their working hours, avoid certain types of clients, or even leave the profession altogether.

How to Counter Burnout As a Therapist

Leadership in therapy is about providing direction, purpose, and a shared understanding. It involves helping clients (and oneself) see new possibilities and providing guidance on how to reach them. This role necessitates a clear vision and a strong sense of purpose, qualities that are protective against the ravages of burnout.

Seeing oneself as an expert, a leader, and a guide is crucial. Remembering one’s ‘why’— the mission and purpose behind choosing the field of therapy — is a powerful motivator and a source of resilience.

Your work environment also plays a huge role in whether or not you experience burnout. If you are in an agency setting where you have an unmanageable workload, or you’re working two non-billable hours for every client hour in your own private practice, consider alternative models. Group private practices can be the perfect blend of autonomy and support. Learn more about group private practice opportunities at Growing Self

While external changes such as reduced caseloads or altered work settings can provide temporary relief, it is the internal shifts — particularly in mindset and ways of operating — that create lasting protection from burnout. Embracing a growth mindset, establishing energetic boundaries, and fostering a clear understanding of where one’s responsibilities begin and end are key.

A Shift to the Coaching Model

Adopting a coaching model, where the therapist acts more as a guide than a rescuer, encourages clarity, direction, and a shared vision of success. It requires understanding that the responsibility for change lies with the client, with the therapist serving as a supportive guide on their journey.

Fostering Joy in Your Work

Regular self-assessment is key. Evaluate your caseload, identify the clients that bring you joy and those that drain your energy, and understand the dynamics at play. Embrace growth opportunities and use them as catalysts for change and improvement in your practice.

Establishing and maintaining healthy boundaries is essential. Know when to say no, recognize the signs of burnout, and prioritize your well-being. Self-care is not an indulgence; it is a professional responsibility.

Burnout is a pervasive challenge in the therapy profession, but it is not unbeatable. We can reignite the joy and passion that brought us to this profession, ensuring that we continue to make a positive impact on the lives of those we serve, while also taking care of ourselves.

Ready to Level Up Your Career?

If you’re feeling ready to explore even more, check out my free resource: The Licensed Certified Coach 2-Part Video Training: “The Ultimate Guide”. This training is designed to help you get clear on your professional path and explore whether coaching could be a fulfilling addition to your career. 

Let’s continue this conversation! If we aren’t already, let’s connect on LinkedIn. I’d love to hear your thoughts and experiences.

Xoxo, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby 

P.S. — I have more articles and podcasts for therapists here, and I hope you check them out!

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Lisa Marie Bobby:  Therapists are uniquely vulnerable to burnout. Even among the helping professions, therapists have unique variables that we all need to be very conscious of and intentionally managing so that we don’t succumb. it is just such, an important, major reality for anybody in our shared profession, and it can be such an obstacle to not just our professional satisfaction and success, but also our personal mental and emotional and relational. So I wanted to create an entire topic on why therapists are so vulnerable to burnout and the things that we can do in order to, protect ourselves.

And also, come back to, to joy if this, the realities of the work have started to take a toll on you. That’s what we’re focusing on today is combating burnout, reclaiming the joy for our practice, and this is true. a real occupational hazard, whether you are a seasoned therapist and you’ve been around this rodeo a couple times already, which.

If you’re a seasoned therapist, you probably have, or also if you’re just coming into the profession, I’m like, shocked if you’re having the experience for the first time. I hope that you’ll get a lot out of this because we’re gonna be talking about burnout in some different ways.

Then you may have heard about before and I, where this comes from. So if you’ve listened to this show before, you know that in addition, so I’m a licensed psychologist. I did a solo private practice for a long time. during my educational experiences, I worked in different environments during internships.

So I spent a year working in a community mental health center environment for my psychology internship. Through my own professional experiences, to that point, but also then going forward, I developed a group private practice, growing self counseling and coaching and there, the mission of the practice is all about taking care of clinicians and very active ways so that they can enjoy the career and create love, happiness, and success for themselves, for their clients.

And routinely having conversations or experiences of burnout in every single one of those environments. and it’s just, it’s something that needs to be addressed. So to jump in, what is burnout? it’s a term that we hear thrown around quite a bit, and I think many high-stress professions can be vulnerable or burnout-inducing.

But, let’s just define our terms for a second. when I’m talking about burnout.

I am well acquainted with burnout personally and professionally. just like every other therapist I know my own personal experiences, I am a licensed. Marriage and family therapist. I’m a licensed psychologist. I did a solo private practice for many years and also, worked in a number of environments.

was in a community mental health center environment for a year for my psychologist internship. but then, I began growing self-counseling and coaching as a group private practice model. And in that role I spent a lot of time with the clinicians on our team, really devoted to their well-being, talking with people, hosting groups and trainings.

I also provide clinical supervision and. In my roles, in private practice, certainly in my community, mental health center And also I think in my role as the leader and orchestrator of everything that goes on a growing self, I can get into places where I have been burnt out.

And so needing to be able to recognize that and take action on my own behalf is very much a skill. But I think also in my work supporting clinicians here in our practice, which is my number one job, we are routinely having conversations and, supportive events to manage burnout in very conscious ways, and both from my personal experiences and my professional experiences of helping myself through this and helping others, I have learned intimately about the ins and outs of burnout, and I think I’ve developed, a multidimensional way of looking at and understanding this experience for therapists.

In particular because again, we are uniquely vulnerable. To going through this for reasons that I’ll explain, but first of all, let’s just start, what is burnout anyway? Let’s define our terms for a second because it’s a word that we hear thrown around, right? and I do think that all high stress professions can, contribute to burnout and especially other helping professions, medical professionals.

The struggle is real. but what does it even mean? So burnout and in the really clinical sense, I think it’s beginning to get the clinical recognition that it actually deserves, but it is way more than having a bad day or feeling tired or even going through a rough patch. When you are really moving into burnout territory, it is this.

Altered state of physical, emotional, and mental depletion that is often the result of prolonged periods of stress or overwork. but it’s also strongly linked to feelings of helplessness, hopelessness. Overwhelm and it can show up in ways that actually look a lot like depression. The symptoms of burnout can sneak up on you.

I know I’m just starting to feel really persistently tired or I don’t have energy or motivation, which for me is uncharacteristic. but also for a lot of people, and I’ve experienced this too, I’m feeling a lot more cynical than usual or detached. feeling less empathy. I also feeling more disconnected from my natural insight and psychological-mindedness.

Like it’s harder for me to have visibility into other people. for some people this can show up as like emotional distress. They’re actually feeling sad, crying, feeling anxious, feeling helpless. But I think for a lot of people, and I think I tend in this direction, is feeling checked out like numb, don’t wanna have anything to do with anything but I think what I’ve also universally experienced in myself and with others is this just sense of. Not even just cynicism, but this like lack of belief. I think that our work has any meaning at all. Why am I doing what I’m doing? Just like really questioning a lot of things and really wondering if we’re in the right space at all.

And yes, can have overlaps with depression and certainly, if it’s the a hedonia, it can’t get out of bed. And it’s really, going into a bad place and showing up in lots of areas of your life as burnout often does. We don’t have as much to give in other areas of our lives, but it certainly can trigger.

A major depressive episode and if that’s something that you’re vulnerable to keep an eye on it. And we can have a lot of these experiences, that are circumstantially coming from our work experience as therapists. That is not major depressive disorder. It’s burnout Recognizing it, first of all, is of utmost importance because when you’re in it, we need to take action in order to rescue ourselves and get ourselves to a better place.

And that’s always goal number one. But on a longer term, basis, we need to recognize that if we are not mindful and managing things intentionally, we can easily slide into that burnout place. And so the preventative action and living, operating in such a way that is protective is vitally important for all of us to do all the time, even if you’re not currently feeling burned out.

And I think part of this is going through it a couple of times so that you can map out, what leads to burnout for you. You can say, I’m not gonna do that again, but sometimes it’s hard to know really what those things are for you until you live in that experience.

However, I do also think that by understanding the unique vulnerabilities of therapists and looking at this on a deeper level, we can get clarity about some of the things that can cause burnout for us that we might not have been aware of because they’re not obvious. And so what I mean by this, is because of who we are as people and the values, the personality qualities, the just energetic way of being that I think many counselors have in common and that are our strengths.

So for example, to have a lot of empathy. To have a lot of compassion and a genuinely caring nature. So to feel how other people feel and feel for them and understand them and really, genuinely feel invested in their well-being, these are our greatest strengths, and these are also our vulnerabilities when it comes to burnout In this work, there is no right answer. Most of the time, every single day, we are confronted with sometimes very dark, inherently traumatizing experiences. The stories that we hear can be awful. Vicarious trauma is a real thing, and I’m gonna do a whole podcast on that topic at some point.

Space of very serious, intense, emotionally like big things. There is a lot of ambiguity and when you combine a high degree of empathy and caring and a desire to help people who are truly suffering. With a lot of uncertainty, you’re in a role of responsibility. People are looking to you for help and support and guidance and leadership, that path is often not clear for us as therapists because, There is no right way frequently to go about all of this. We are certainly looking to our models and having to put energy into creating that map for ourselves and our clients, but that’s not always clear. so when we’re in these spaces, especially frequently, this pushes us into the soup with our clients.

Where we can get into this inverted responsibility dynamic where we feel overwhelmed by the magnitude of what they’re bringing to us. We feel low-grade panic around. It’s my job to get us out of here, and the lines between their responsibilities and ours start to blur. Additionally, we as counselors are socialized out of a leadership mentality.

Our clients are the experts, not us, and so I think. Clients are placing responsibility on us. We are energetically placing the responsibility on our clients to find their own way out. And what happens is that everybody starts to feel stuck. It starts to feel hard. We feel overwhelmed, and it’s like we’re.

We’re riding in the boat with the clients on this raging river, and it feels helpless and especially throwing a lot of trauma into the mix. It takes a big emotional toll on us because it’s like we get into this washing machine with our clients and then, do it again eight more times that day.

And that takes a toll, especially if it feels like you can’t escape it. And what happens is that over time, that energetic burden starts to make it harder for us to be effective at our work. And when that happens, it turns into this downward spiral where having these difficult emotional experiences feel drained by the work itself, and it’s just like waves crashing over your head over and over, and you can’t even get away from it enough to figure out, what am I gonna do to make this better?

And that then contributes to, one of the challenges that we face as a profession, as a whole, which is people leaving the profession, therapists skilled, talented, loving, competent therapists, leaving this profession because they don’t know how else to solve the burnout problem. So they flee into HR positions or, some kind of administrative or teaching position where they feel protected from the emotional turmoil and weight of what this work can involve for us.

And while, I mean it’s challenging to pin down exact numbers. There are some research that indicates that the reason why therapists leave the field is because of burnout and in large numbers. I wasn’t able to track down this Statistic. but I heard from a colleague that they had read a research paper, which is not actually a good job of me citing my sources.

but that something like eight years. Is the average shelf life of a marriage and family therapist from the time they enter the profession to the time they decide that they don’t wanna do this anymore, that there can actually be a pretty rapid Nope. I’ve heard, anecdotally from clinicians that have a good friend who, has a non-profit agency that serves as, an APA accredited, psychologist internship.

They go do something else with it. So that is. A problem. Obviously it’s a problem because it turns into a supply side problem. Parts of what is contributing to the brokenness. I think of mental health in general. But I think also the bigger problem is that why can this profession be so destructive to the well-being of therapists, that.

Is the problem that I seek to solve because I believe that this should be joyful and meaningful and satisfying and fun and sustainable. And for many people not knowing how to anticipate and proactively manage or heal back, bounce back from burnout can be limiting factors on what could be an otherwise really satisfying career.

and this is why we need to talk about it, why we need to address this head on and find ways together, through conversations like this to reignite the passion and the joy. So one of the most powerful antidotes to burnout that I have found and that I am often talking with clinicians, growing self about clinical supervisees is.

To combat the energetic causes of burnout by embracing a different role than the one that we were taught, which is as a leader, as a guide within the therapeutic relationship with our clients. This prevents us. From experiencing the level of ambiguity, of helplessness, of overwhelm, that we are so vulnerable to as caring, empathetic, compassionate people who are approaching this as passengers on the boat.

We can’t do that and be well. And when I talk about leadership, I’m not talking about hierarchy, I’m not talking about power. I am talking about providing clarity, providing direction, purpose, a shared understanding about inspiring action. And when I talk about leadership, especially with clients. Leadership is about helping ourselves first, and then our clients see the situation and the possibilities ahead and providing active guidance to get there.

It is embracing the ownership of the process itself. In a way, obviously that is respectful of the authentic needs, rights, and feelings of our clients. Our clients are certainly the experts on their own lives, but the reason they are here with us is to get guidance and leadership for how to get where they want to go.

And in some levels we certainly do, but when we abdicate leadership, it contributes to burnout and to poor outcomes with our clients. So one of the first steps therefore in.

Proactively transforming yourself in order to be protected from burnout is by building a new identity as a helping professional to get comfortable with the idea that you are actually an expert. You are a leader, you are a process guide. You do know a lot of things. And you have a plan for how to get your clients from here to there.

We need clarity to be leaders. We need clarity on our mission, our purpose, remembering our why and the reasons that we chose this profession in the first place. one of the ideas that has really been so meaningful and powerful for me over the years and has been a light in the darkness.

So when I am moving into a bad place and feeling overwhelmed and unclear and uncertain, and taking on other people’s emotional turmoil without feeling able to help either of us get out of it. That makes me recognize what’s happening and that this is a moment for me to accept leadership, get clear, figure out what is going on or what is it gonna take to get me out of this personally, but also my clients who are depending on me in that moment.

And going back to my big why is part of my lighthouse, and that goes back to the core mission. For me, that is not just about creating a positive impact on a client or even necessarily. A single clinician, although that does have more impact for me, when I think about being effective in my role as a growth partner, as a change agent, I think about a generational change.

I am not just supporting the growth and healing and wellness of this person sitting in front of me or this couple with me and couples counseling. I’m thinking about more than just their success, their satisfaction. I’m thinking about the environment and the family experience that this individual or couple will now be able to create for their children.

Should they have any that this. Kid is gonna be born into this family that is going to be much more emotionally safe, stable, emotionally secure than it would have been had I not had the opportunity to proactively create positive change many years in the past before this child maybe even comes along.

We. Know that people are so profoundly impacted by generational trauma. I learned that the hard way in some of my earliest experiences in this profession as a trainee, that people who had a series of adverse childhood experiences had a much harder time in every domain of life. And a much longer journey when it comes to growth and healing than those people who are privileged enough to come into the world in a family where they were safe and protected, and not just physically, but emotionally and where their needs were seen and respected and met.

And so what I think about is my work in the here and now, how it contributes to a child having that early childhood experience. 10, 15 years from now and how that healthy well child will grow into a healthy, adult who will then have a healthy, happy relationship and a family that can support that continued positive vibration.

And that becomes the butterfly effect of our work. It ripples out and the true impact. Of that kind of work that we’re doing, I don’t think it will ever be seen in our lifetime and maybe not on the side of heaven that extends out so far beyond us. And that to me is the most exciting, and I think life-giving and purpose-giving idea that I hold onto during dark times, and I wanted to share it with you.

In case it helps you, and that’s one of the reasons honestly why I’m here talking to you today is because I think about the impact of helping you and supporting you as going far beyond just you. Yes, I’m here for your growth and love and happiness and success, and your wellbeing and your joy, but when you are healthy and you have the potential to create.

So much positive impact on the world and to the lives of all the people that you’re going to touch over the course of your career and how those people who are helped by you are going to spread out into the world, spreading the light instead of the darkness.

Understanding burnout and the shadow that it casts on, not just us as individuals or even our profession as the whole, but like all of those people in the world who, maybe not have any help at all. this is our moment to really create a lot of change. So there’s my story, Your role as a leader is to find your story, your meaning and your mission, and the idea that is bigger than you. That can sustain you through these moments when it’s feeling very hard and when it’s feeling very dark. If you are a spiritual person or have a belief system that informs this, that is wonderful.

if you have a sense of personal mission or meaning or values, now is the time to Haul them out, because. it’s doing this kind of work that creates an anchor, a lighthouse, a wellspring of sustenance for you. ’cause you’re gonna need it. We all do. It’s also true that in addition to creating a different identity as a leader, that allows us to feel more empowered and challenges us to find our own meaning and mission as part of our work as leaders.

There’s certainly a time and a place to be making external changes that support our well-being, I will say that many times. Clinicians who do not have a comprehensive burnout, protection and recovery strategy can only have avoidant strategies at their disposal and avoidant strategies with burnout are good.

We all need that as avoidant strategies. Taking time off, saying no. Having healthy boundaries, limiting you know your availability. Sometimes taking a vacation where you unplug completely and don’t think about any of this for a period of time. Self-care practices, certainly sleep and exercise and bubble baths.

And all the things that take care of you mentally and emotionally and physically investing in other relationships or other positive and pleasurable things that feel like they’re energizing you in non-professional ways. All of these are really good and. That can’t be the whole picture because if our only strategy is to avoid the work, then that turns into maybe I shouldn’t be doing the work at all.

And so that’s why we also need to have, these proactive internal strategies for shifting our relationship to the work itself. In addition to the, boundary or self-care types of, avoidance. Strategies when it comes to burnout protection because the most protective measures against burnout comes not from getting away from the work.

It comes from making internal shifts. That allow us to experience the work itself differently, particularly when it comes to our mindset and our ways of operating. Anything that we can do to feel more clear, more empowered. More in control, more secure, and also more, empathetic, yet not going so deeply into the soup that we become out of control is where we need to go in order to manage this.

So adopting a growth mindset. Which for you and for your clients, which is I am on a path of development and mastery. I am moving towards something. I am experimenting and taking action on my own behalf, and it’s getting incrementally better. Or if it’s not, I’m using those opportunities to learn from my mistakes.

That contributes to a empowering, confident mindset instead of. Helplessness and panic and overwhelm. So a growth mindset is key. But also establishing these energetic boundaries, right? Like where do I start? And you. Start when it comes to the emotional, burden of what we’re doing with our clients in therapy.

I’ll refer you back to another podcast that I recorded around, why you can’t work harder than your clients when it comes to this kind of thing. So that’s what I mean about energetic boundaries, that also fostering a really clear understanding for yourself and for your client. Of our roles and responsibilities in this process are crucial.

when you’re able to do those things, you become very well protected from experiencing burnout. one of the other strategies, in addition to doing this kind of shift when it comes to my therapy clients, I have also felt a very, powerful shift that has felt, much more positive and energizing and helpful to me through the practice.

Of coaching psychology, and by incorporating a coaching model into my work with clients, that’s why I became a certified coach. That’s why I’m so passionate about teaching coaching to therapists and helping other therapists become certified in coaching. And it’s not about abandoning therapy.

This is really about enhancing our ability. Starting, from that foundation of being therapists. But the coaching model itself is a much more energetically protective model for us and for our clients because of the mindset and the culture and the way that we go about it.

Because therapy, especially standard-issue talk therapy can be very passive. it can be incredibly ambiguous, and we can be just as much in the dark with our clients. In the soup with those big emotions, what do I do? Whereas a coaching model is all about helping clients get clarity direction.

Visibility into obstacles, creating a shared vision for success and an overt message of action-oriented accountability and personal responsibility for their change that we are there to facilitate and support, not. So this is a very active and positive and forward-moving approach that can be extremely helpful, not just for helping our clients get outcomes, but when we’re conceptualizing our work in this way and our role in the work, we are much less likely to fall in to the mindset and professional experiences of burnout

Therapeutic mindset without some of the things that we’re talking about today. So just to recap the strategies for reclaiming your joy and preventing burnout, foundational self-care, healthy boundaries, unplugging, turning off, sleeping, eating, exercising, investing time and energy into other parts of your life, all for the good.

in addition to those. Outside of the work interventions, self-interventions, we also need to find ways of reclaiming the joy in our everyday interactions with our clients and our relationship to the work itself. So a regular self-assessment is key. Keeping an eye on how we’re feeling, evaluating our caseload, and evaluating our approach to it so that we can get visibility into.

Sources of joy and energy, but also look at with a lot of intention and self-awareness, like where you are feeling drained and depleted to understand the dynamics at play and how you can handle things differently in order to create a different experience for yourself. So strategies to do that. Again, as we discussed, rekindling the flame, reigniting your passion, brought us into this field.

The finding your why, it’s about that transformation for ourselves and for clients. But what about that is so exciting for you when you can reclaim your why, that’s where a deep well of energy can come from.

Changing your professional identity and conceptualizing yourself as the leader and the guide that you are, and to start showing up like one in your therapeutic work with clients, meaning that you have. Clarity, you have visibility into where we are, where we’re going, how to communicate that to clients, and also talking with them about the process in a way that empowers them to be the ones doing the work with your support, of course not for them.

additionally looking into, ways of operating as a helper that are inherently more empowering and positive and action-oriented. Because to have that leadership energy in a framework that’s geared towards accountability and action and success and progress will help you reclaim the joy that you wanna feel in your work.

So I hope that these ideas are helpful for you and I hope if nothing else you felt seen and heard and understood, but also validated around why we are as vulnerable as we are. But again, that other big takeaway that we have to provide self-leadership. We have to handle this in a proactive way by making changes in the way we operate if we want this to be sustainable long term.

This is a big topic. I’m sure it’s one that we’ll revisit on another episode of the podcast in the future. But in the meantime, there’s more here for you. I have put together all kinds of resources and support for you. come to my website. It’s growing self.com/. Therapists is where you wanna go. And there you’ll find all kinds of informational articles and pro tips and advice that I’ve compiled for you.

You’ll find more episodes of the podcast. You’ll also find access to a free assessment that I developed for you to give you insight and self-awareness into the current. aspects of your professional experience that may be really strong and working well for you, but also the areas of your professional life that might deserve more attention.

burnout is very much key because when we have areas of neglect or low energy, if you have a lot of those happening, that will contribute to burnout. Whereas if you are lifting yourself up in all the dimensions of professional wellness, that will inherently be a very powerful protective factor when it comes to things like burnout.

So check those out, GrowingSelf.com forward slash therapists, LinkedIn, you can jump in, join the conversation, share your reactions, your stories, your questions, and just stay in touch with me ’cause I wanna hear about how you’re doing and, what else I can do to support you on upcoming episodes.

So I look forward to hearing from you. All right, take care and we’ll be back in touch soon.

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