Dr. Ally: The least interesting thing about me is the body I woke up in. It doesn’t really say as much about me as you might want it to.

Dr. Lisa: What if your body, the way that you look, is actually the least interesting thing about you? You know, we are all socialized. We spend years getting tricked into believing that our worth comes from looking a certain way or being attractive enough or conforming to someone else’s idea of what’s beautiful or interesting or pretty, and that is so much weight to carry, and it also hides the truth of how interesting and amazing you are.

Dr. Ally: Society can begin to connect meaning to perception, to what we perceive to physical characteristics, and then we can start to act a particular way very quickly, right? Right. Milliseconds sometimes before our, our higher processing is even able to get involved. We make these assumptions, and sometimes really bad things can happen.

Dr. Lisa: It’s hard to break out of that, particularly when we’re living in a culture that, in many ways, rewards it. So today, we are talking about how to break free from this pressure to make your appearance conform to someone else’s standard and derive a lot of self-worth from that so that you can reconnect with the parts of yourself that really matter and feel genuinely good about who you are.

Dr. Ally: The awareness is the piece that I just wanna bring to this book. I want people to just realize that what they see isn’t necessarily what it is.

Dr. Lisa: If this is your first time tuning in, I’m so glad you’re here with me today. I’m your host, Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, here with you every single week to support your growth, love, happiness, and success. My background is that I’m a psychologist. I’m also a licensed marriage and family therapist and a board-certified coach. So it is very important to me that we are talking to real-deal, authentic, trustworthy experts who know what they’re talking about and who are coming into this with a very generous spirit so that you are getting actionable takeaways from every single episode. Of course, we are here making these for you, but I also have a favor to ask. I’d love it if you wanted to keep in touch with me, so like, subscribe, however we wanna stay in touch. But also think about who in your life needs to hear this message and who else could benefit from some of the, the wisdom that you might take on board today. So for today’s conversation, we have so much in store. Let’s get into it because we’re here with a very special friend, uh, my colleague, Dr. Allycin Powell-Hicks. Dr. Ally. She is a mental health expert with a PhD from Loma Linda. She teaches psychology at Cal State. She’s the founder of Doux Consulting Group, spent many years on television hosting shows on Discovery+ and the OWN Network, and more recently she is the author of a fascinating and, I believe, very important new book called The Problem With Pretty. And Dr. Ally, I am so happy to be visiting with you today. Thank you for being here.

Dr. Ally: Girl, you make me sound so much better than how I can make- I mean-. myself sound. Thank you so much. I’m great to

Dr. Lisa: Be here. I’m very- You’re, you’re kind of rad. grateful. Well, th-thank you. But honestly, though, I’m such a fan. Like, as soon as I met you and learned more about your work and also, like, the mission behind The Problem With Pretty, I was like

Dr. Lisa: Oh my g- Goodness. So why don’t we just start there? Why don’t you take us into this work, The Problem with Pretty. I’d love to know where it came from, and have to ask. Mm-hmm. If you guys are listening or watching this on YouTube, you will already know that Dr. Allycin Powell-Hicks is, like, the most beautiful human in the history of the world. So, like- What?. is there a relationship there, Dr. Ally? The Problem with Pretty, like, does part of it come from your own experiences as being a unusually beautiful human?

Dr. Ally: I will say probably ’cause I think everything comes out of our experiences in the world, right? Um, it came, I would say, mostly out of me feeling un-beautiful, not beautiful, ugly for most of my life. I think, I think that’s more probably where it came from.

Dr. Lisa: Really? Yeah. I, like, honestly, that personally surprises me to hear ’cause, like, what I, ’cause I, I got to meet you in person at APA and was like, “Oh my gosh, she’s gorgeous.” And then I w- obviously realized how intelligent and interesting you are, but, like, you’re very pretty. so sweet. So not to be weird. But, like- But, so you didn’t feel pretty?

Dr. Ally: No, and I think that’s also something that’s interesting about the way beauty is internalized by each individual person, that the outside observer can see one thing, but the person actually having this, like, emic experience, right? The experience of self, the phenomenological experience of being in your own body can experience something very different. Yeah. And that is something that intrigues me, right? That’s something that intrigued me. Um, I honestly have much more basic reasons, ba- basic B reasons, but, like, I, I wanted to be a fashion designer. I just wanted to design- Me too. I wanted to design interiors. Yeah. I wanted to make things pretty, and my parents were like, “You gotta get a PhD in something,” and. Yeah, so I studied psychology, and I was talking to my dad about it. I was like, “Eh, I don’t wanna be serious. Why do I have to be this serious person?” And he was like, “Well, why don’t you study the fashion, like, the psychology of fashion?” And so I did some research, did a little lit search, dove into the research, and saw that there was a space for me in studying cosmetic surgery and studying how women connect to themselves. And then I found some feminist theories, specifically objectified consciousness theories, and was like, “Oh, wait. There’s a there there.” Mm. Like, there’s something to the way in which society treats us which shapes the way that we function. So that’s why to your question I say I’m sure that parts of my life have been altered based on the way that I look to others. There’s no way to deny that. There’s no way to. Like, you’re an attractive woman. Mm-hmm. I’m an attractive woman. So when we move through the world, doors open differently. People respond differently, and there’s no denying that. But I didn’t necessarily feel stunning my whole life. I think now I feel much more in love with myself, much more in love with my body, my everything, my, my spirit, my essence, my character, all the things, and we’ll probably get to talking a little bit more about that later, um, and the ways in which, like, I help my clients kind of like love multiple parts of them. Um, but yeah, but to start out, I definitely didn’t think I was, like, the hottest girl in the world. I knew that there was something going on, but I didn’t know exactly what.

Dr. Lisa: Hmm. So interesting. Well, and I- This is-. just love the way that you have really, you know, shined a light of psychology, psychological science, to this phenomenon.

Dr. Lisa: And I also am just so intrigued now to hear more about your relationship with art and design, so interior design. Looking at your background, you, you stood up a minute ago and I was like, “Oh, your office is just so incredibly beautiful.” No, really. Thank you. And, like, tying it into fashion. But, like, what’s fascinating to me is that these things can mean a lot to us. Mm-hmm. We can have a connection to the appearance of our environment or our clothing or ourselves, but they also mean things to other people. There’s, like, a information transfer that comes from the way that things look.

Dr. Ally: Yeah, I used to work in branding for uh, for years. My consulting firm initially was focused on branding, neuroesthetics. neuromarketing, the way in which the things we see shape the ways people think, shape the ways people feel, uh, whether you’re one of those people who believe that thoughts come before feelings or feelings come before thoughts. I say it almost doesn’t matter because they come very in close suc- succession. Yeah. So one, it one shapes the other, the other shapes the other. Yeah. But color theory, for example, when you’re building a brand and you want to convey loyalty or fidelity those brands tend to be blue, right? Blue flowers, not for no reason, right? Um, when you want to convey softness and etherealness, otherworldliness, you use pastels things, pinks, pastel purples, pastel greens, pastel blues, right? There’s a particular way in which our ancestors felt calmed, and we, through the power of epigenetics, you know, how the ways in which we, So epigenetics is a study of how the things that we do, the environments we find ourselves in, the traumas we experience, the joys we experience, the ways in which we eat, the ways, the, the climates we grow up in reshape and activate or deactivate, to kinda say it in a really blunt way. different genes in our body, and how our children and their children and their children inherit those altered genes from us. And there’s a lot of evidence to prove it. There’s a lot of evidence probably to disprove it, too, but it is kind of where science is now. Mm-hmm. And it, it has shaped the way we feel in particular environments and in the presence. of particular colors and particular forms and shapes. Yeah. And in the book, I talk a lot about the history of beauty, the evolution of beauty, and the ways in which it has historically kind of shaped our ancestors and how it makes us feel in the moment. The hormones, we release dopamine, for example, when we’re in the presence of beautiful people, beautiful places, beautiful c- constructs or designs, art, architecture. Mm. Right? There’s particular emotions that are evoked when you stand at the foot of a huge structure. You know you’re at the Empire State Building and you just look up and you’re just like

Dr. Lisa: Hmm. Yeah, or like- In all. cathedrals a thousand years ago. Yes. They were creating an environmental experience that supported. this experience of, of a connection with God. And so th- this design, it means something. Colors, right? We’re drawn to things that can create a mood, a feeling. It can transmit information about us to other people through, you know, sight. But the, the book is called The Problem With Pretty. Yeah. And I think that is the intriguing part.

Dr. Lisa: Yes. And, uh, take us deeper into this. I mean, um, all of these things are true, and there’s so much good that comes from intentional design. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But when it comes to people and our concept of pretty, I’m thinking probably especially for women, but also, you know, other gender identifying people can probably be, experience this as well, it can get more complicated

Dr. Ally: And, um and when people initially kind of, like, look at the book, they pick it up, they think it’s primarily about, like, um, the problems that pretty people experience as they move through the world right? Like, oh, it’s, you know- Poor. yeah, the poor pretty girls. And I look at it a little differently, right? Mm. Also intersectionally as how society, so I, I make a case in the book that society and evolution intertwine. And they form and reform one another. You know, humans are born with very little knowledge. You know, like, different types of animals are born, they know how to walk, they know how to feed, they know how to do so many things. Within, like, three weeks of being here, they’re basically adults. Yeah. Hunting and doing what they need to do, right? But human babies are very different, right? It takes us almost 26 years to really get, like, our full faculties about us, and the first seven years, you learn around 75% of the things you’re ever gonna know, right? And most of those things- I didn’t. I mean, and I. Maybe I need to look at the data again to make sure. Uh but this was a, a, a nice old stat from grad school. Back

Dr. Lisa: In the- I, I’m not gonna pop quiz you. I, I that’s. And interesting to, to think that there’s so

Dr. Ally: I love a pop quiz because I always, I think science moves forward, and none of us, you know, I, I believe in epistemic humility, and we all have to acknowledge that, like, things change. But that is something that I, I, uh, a stat that I like because it shows the importance of culture. ‘Cause culture is one of the. primary things we as humans have to learn because of the importance of our frontal lobe, because of the importance of how humans survive through relationships, right? And so being a part and an active participant in your culture will secure your safety, will secure- Mm. your longevity. Yeah. I didn’t build this house that I live in. There’s roadwork going on outside to make sure that we have water and electricity and all the things that we need. I had nothing to do with that. I’m not out there doing that work. Somebody else is. And we all have to work to co-create this environment that we find ourselves in, because that’s how humans thrive. Right. And so we have to learn all of these lessons. And so what studies have shown us is that when we actually factually perceive beauty, so my eyeballs, your eyeballs looking at your background. I see, like, a teal moving into, like, a purple Right? And I think we could potentially agree on that. But our perception is altered, our actual physical perception is altered by society and our preexisting experiences due to, like, top-down processing. So I even talk about, like, Black Lives Matter, for example, when there was, you know when we were having these conversations about police brutality and men and women being killed unjustly by police officers. Mm-hmm. That is what really triggered me to wanna make sure that I wrote this, because preexisting beliefs about what is connected in a society to a particular phenotype. So if that phenotype is skin color, gender, n- uh, fe- you know, features, compli- uh, hair texture. So society can begin to connect meaning to perception, to what we perceive physical characteristics, and then we can start to act a particular way very quickly, right? Right. Milliseconds sometimes. before our, our higher processing is even able to get involved and make these assumptions, and sometimes really bad things can happen. to other people or to us. And I think that jump and that leap is the problem with pretty. And it is that. It, yeah, we don’t-

Dr. Lisa: Awful. A- a- and, but also like, you know, going back to the beginning of what you were saying, like how, how hardwired it is into our human physiology. around the way things look and the snap judgments. So what you’re saying is that if people aren’t aware that’s happening, there could be many things inferred, uh, that are not true that can lead to really devastating consequences.

Dr. Ally: Exactly. That’s like the perfect way to say it, is that the awareness is the piece that I just wanna bring in this book.

Dr. Ally: I want people to just realize that what they see isn’t necessarily what it is, and isn’t necessarily the truth. Just be able to challenge yourself for a second. And I, I do use an example in the book. There’s a, a man named Jerry Nave. And so I’m. I used to be a wedding planner, so for like, yeah, for like two years. I bet

Dr. Lisa: You were really good at it.

Dr. Ally: Loved it. I would get back to it if it wasn’t so stressful. But, um, I had a blast. But, um, and so I would go to the fl- I was always at the Flower District, and then I started throwing parties, and I’d have these huge events and stuff. So the Flower District here in LA, you gotta be there at like 3:00 in the morning, okay? Wow. It is like, it is a thing. They bring all these flowers in from England or wherever they get these flowers from, and you gotta be there first so you can get the good stuff. And there was this man who was unhoused and who would beg in the street right outside the Flower District, and I would see him all the time. And he had a facial deformity where he was missing an eye, part of his nose, and part of like his face, like, on one side. And then a hand, part of his hand on that same side. I didn’t know what was going on, but I had always been like, kinda like, you know, does some- was he sick? What was going on, you know? And so I, I n- never really interacted. And years and years go by, and now we’re, like, in the pandemic, and we’re all at home, and I start watching Soft White Underbelly. You familiar with that platform? they interview folks who are living in the streets, unhoused, people who maybe have substance abuse things, and they interview a lot of different types of people that are maybe more- Sounds. vulnerable. Oh, it’s very good interviews. And they happened to interview him, and I was like, “Huh, I know this guy.” You know that guy? Yeah. “I’ve seen this guy.” And it turns out he was a mechanic, and he was trying to get home on the bus, and somebody came up to him with a gun and shot him. He tried to block. It was a shotgun, and he was g- very drastically injured as a result. And so any assumption that I had made was not that. I did not assume that, right? Yeah. And I’m a person who’s aware. I’m a person who reads. I’m a person who. You know, at the time I wasn’t studying beauty like I am now, but I’m a person who considers herself aware. And, and so they’re talking about how he was in a coma, and when he woke up, he didn’t wanna be a burden on his family, so he chose to be unhoused. And, um, and he had a family that cared for him ostensibly. That was the assumption. I don’t know for a fact, but I mean, it seems as if he did. And he made a decision, and he had passed away, and that’s why they were, like, re-airing this episode. And it just hit me so hard. And I was like I had, had written this whole story about this man in my head, and I was freaking wrong. Absolutely wrong. Yeah. And if I could be wrong about that, how many of us can be wrong every day-. all day long?

Dr. Lisa: Oh, yeah. But see, th- this is such a powerful example of the way that things look turns into all these assumptions, and stories, and biases, and things that we believe- S that have no basis in reality.

Dr. Lisa: And then, and so then when it comes to. Okay. C- Let, let me organize a question for you in my head because, like, there, there are two competing ideas right now, and one is how does this impact people who are perceived as attractive by others? How, how does the assumptions that people make about who they are based on how they look, what does that do? But then the other side, because I think probably fair to say, there are a lot more people who are, you know, attractive in their own way and not the most beautiful person in the room. Mm-hmm. And so to have these, like, rare, gorgeous creatures wandering around and everybody else-. like, uh, looking at that. what does that do to people who would never identify as, as being, um considered attractive by others? So I know that’s, like, five questions in one- It’s-. but, like-.

Dr. Ally: It’s perfect. Like, on one hand, we have halo effect. Okay. Right? So halo effect is the first way, the way in which you’re introduced to someone, the first thing you kind of notice about them, if it is positive or negative, it maintains your perspective on them and tints the way you see them in the future. Hmm. So if that person is attractive based on your cul- your culture, your society, your experiences, that can tint the way you see them for the future so you could assume more positive things about them. So when we have a po- a, a positive halo effect on us, people, um, like for example, people who are seen as attractive get more, make more money over the course of their lifetimes. They are, um, given more jobs. They get jobs maybe a little bit more quicker, more often. They tend to be married. They tend to get in relationships. But there is a caveat that there’s a certain level of attractiveness. Once you hit that, you know, there’s that, that normal curve, your one to two standard deviations, but once you get three to four standard deviations- The bell curve. The b you become so attractive that you actually become a kind of, like, evolutionary, uh, psychologists say basically a genetic risk, that you could be such an outlier that maybe something’s going on with your genes. Or maybe you will be swooped up by another partner And you’re, like, at risk of cheating. And so sometimes you do hear, like, these, like, supermodels who are, like, talk about how it’s harder for them to sometimes get dates, and people don’t approach them, and people don’t talk to them. They make the assumption that they’re mean. So there is that phenomena on the outer edges. Mm. Being seen as attractive within your community is a positive thing that can give you more rights and benefits, and the benefit of the doubt. There’s a study where, like, people who see attractive, more attractive people stuck on the side of the road are more likely to pull over. So you’re more likely to get help. And so if being attractive in society. Oh, also, before I get to that, like, even in school, it impacts us from a very early age. Uh, people hold pretty babies longer. They smile at them more. They say more positive things to them. They pay them more attention. Prettier kids in school tend to get called on more by the teacher. They’re given the benefit of the doubt. If they do something they’re not supposed to do, they’re not immediately punished. They’re not immediately put in detention. There’s more steps that kind of play in the way. People, they’re assumed to be smarter. They’re assumed to be more social, and sometimes they end up being more social. They end up, kids, adolescents, teenagers, you know, into early 20s, teens and 20s end up having sexual experiences a little earlier because they have more access to potential partners. Um, and if the benefit of being attractive is, like, let’s say, like, a plus eight, the negativity and the damage of being seen as unattractive is, like, a negative 12.

Dr. Lisa: All the advantages that people who are physically attractive according to, you know, the paradigms of their culture, have so many privileges. as they move through the world, and you were about to tell us about the experiences of people who are not attractive. Yeah. Take us into that.

Dr. Ally: Yeah. So there’s very real dangers in society of not being seen as attractive, and I think a, a jarring example of that here in the United States was the ugly laws. You heard of those? Yeah. What? There were laws called the ugly laws in the, like, 1700, 1800s, and, um, I don’t know the exact, I can’t remember the exact date right now. And they actually ended in, like, I think the last ugly law was in, like, 1972 in San Francisco. They started in San Francisco, and basically it was a law against begging, public begging, and they were saying that, like, if you were somehow not formed in the exact same way society wanted you to be formed, if you were missing limbs or if you had deformities, that they did not want you to be seen in public. And so these people would have to live, be inside and be cared for by members of their family. And this is where we kind of get this, like, this concept of, like, this, um, this European ghost in the attic, you know, looking out through the window because you have people who are being relegated into these back rooms and back corners of their homes or, uh, state hospitals or places like that because there was basically this impression, like, at the time that, like, people could be harmed by the shock of seeing other people that were. And, you know, that didn’t look the way that they wanted them to. Lots of thoughts about pregnant women and how they would give birth to, uh, babies that weren’t healthy if they were, like, scared by animals and stuff. It was a lot of weird stuff they were going through. And so these laws were put in place that actually changed the ways in which people who were deformed or who had handicaps or ob- or disabilities rather, obvious disabilities, could move through, throughout the country, and impacted obviously their ability to make money, their ability to have freedom, liberation, the pursuit of happiness, all the things that we all benefit from. And so that’s a way in which we see that people were very much so impacted by nothing that would actually harm anyone. Right. Just this uncomfortability, right? And then there’s also laws that are different but somewhat related, the, uh, teen yon laws in Louisiana. So tignon laws were specifically foisted upon, uh, women of the diaspora, African American women, Creole women, women that were ex-slaves or in any other way, shape, or form of African ancestry in Louisiana. And they were told by the community that they couldn’t show their hair in public, so they were forced to wear these rags around their heads called tignons. But basically, the women were like, “We’re still gonna be fly, don’t you worry.” And they got these, they got, like, fabrics made of gold, like gold and filigree and designs and tassels, and they would add pins and hats on top of these, these, um, pieces of fabric that they were required to wear. And it got so popular basically that they, the Queen of France started wearing them. This was Napoleon’s wife. So, is awesome. It became the rage. And so, but it was this idea that your hair somehow makes us either uncomfortable or we can signal your status based on h- a signal that we see, right? And so you be having this, like, ethnic history, this phenotype that we can see. We want you to cover it. We want to be able to say, “This is how we choose for you to look.” And, um, and then my third point, there was this, um, longitudinal study in Wisconsin, well-known study, and some team decided to go in and look through a yearbook, 1957 yearbook. Mm-hmm. And they ranked everyone in the yearbook based on how attractive they were, which I’m like-. y’all are creative The top attractive, middle attractive, and then least attractive. And then they looked for them. And the study found that people in the lowest attractiveness group, as compared to the average attractive people, actually lived a year to two years less. yeah, so it could be for a number of different reasons, but some of their theories were that those folks weren’t cared for as much. You go to the hospital and people don’t maybe listen to what you have to say as well as they would somebody else. And so that shows how there’s, through a number of different interactions, a person’s life can be very negatively impacted. if they do not align with the cultural norms of the society.

Dr. Lisa: Right. Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing these studies, by the way. It was a- I was not familiar with any of them, and they are so interesting. But okay, so, you know, w- what’s coming up for me now, I think that there has been a lot made about the influence of social media on young people, and certainly, like, you know, adolescents and adolescent girls. And I think that, you know, it’s e- e- eas- easy to blame the power of social media for, you know, y- young girls being very focused on their physical appearance, and clothes, and the way they look, and camera filters. Like, all, all these different, like, I need to change my body to be more conventionally attractive in this world, and the, the level of anxiety and energy that goes into that. Um, but, like, what you’re saying, though, is that almost there’s this drive because on some level, a desire to be in this privileged category in some ways. Like that, that, that people sort of instinctively know this and feel this anxiety, this urgency, this desire to be and that creates problems.

Dr. Ally: Yeah, I think that duality is hard. Yeah. The knowing that there is an inherent benefit, right? Mm-hmm. We’re not crazy for paying attention to this. That’s one of the things I like to help people understand. Like, nothing’s wrong with you for saying, like, “I want to be in control of my body and change the ways that I look in a particular space,” right? I’m not anti cosmetic surgery. Mm-hmm. I’m not anti self-care. I’m pro things that help you realize your worth. I’m not a fan of people believing that there’s one way to be, and that they could do something dangerous to get that. So I think, you know, um, Naomi Wolf talked about how beauty for women is currency in her book, uh, The Beauty Myth, and she’s not wrong. And so, and that’s a, a reality that we exist in. And hopefully through some level of awareness, through some level of kind of introspection, we can begin as a society to shape, reshape that. Mm. To shift it, right? Because like I talked about earlier, society helps to shape, evolution helps to shape society, and guess what? We’re all in society. And so we have an opportunity here. But we do notice that beauty te- uh, beauty trends change over time, right? And I talk about that too. Mm. So if you’re like, you know, I grew up in the ’80s and ’90s, and one of the trends then was a very particular silhouette that nobody could just decide to have.

Dr. Lisa: The, the Kate Moss thing with the cigarette. Yeah. I was there.

Dr. Ally: Right. Mm-hmm. And then we see now in these past like j- I think 2010s to 2020s a completely inverted ideal was very much so an indicator. of beauty. And we had women getting all types of procedures so that they could align with the norm, and now we are actually starting to see people reversing those same procedures so they can like look a different way, and now we’re entering this trend of stronger not smaller. Hmm. I’m not sure if you’ve heard about this. Um, but that’s kind of where we are. And so if we get too caught up in this rigid idea of what beauty is, we will find ourselves having to pivot. And so that’s why I align with having a personal style, having a personal identity, right? ‘Cause our identity is more, like, than you said, like, than the body we woke up in. I just woke up in this. You woke up in that. We didn’t choose any of this. I mean, some spiritual people believe we did, but Like, we, I, I tell people all the time, the least interesting thing about me is the body I woke up in. Yeah. It doesn’t really say as much about me as you might want it to. And, and, and appearances can be deceiving. And so I’m not telling anyone not to care, because I do think it can also be socially advantageous. Mm-hmm. If you are in need of something and you know, you know, putting on a pencil skirt and a business jacket is gonna get you that job so that you and your family can eat, put on the pencil skirt and the business jacket. Um, but then go back to living your actual truth when you come to work every other day, right? Mm-hmm. And but I, I think, so I think that there’s a duality that is, I think, hard to live with, right? Where does personal agency atte- like hit up against society’s restricting expectations of us physically?

Dr. Lisa: Right. Well, l- let’s talk more about that part if we could. Mm-hmm. So I know, Dr. Ally, you do so many different things, which is part of what I think makes you so interesting. We know you’re teaching, and I know that you’re doing the TV work and read books, but I know you’re also a coaching psychologist, which I love. Yeah, I love coaching. You’re frequently working with people in order to help them develop themselves and create transformation in their lives, and I’m wondering if you would be able to share a story, maybe de-identified, but you know, something that you’ve experienced with a client or maybe in your own life. where some of these ideas that we’re talking about on a more academic level, like what does it look like? inside someone who is caught in the crosshairs of these different convergences that you’re talking about right now, right? Like appearance, and perception, and norms, and the way things change, the way they feel about themselves versus the way others feel about them. Yeah. What does this do to you?

Dr. Ally: I can speak in generalities about it ’cause I’ve seen a number of women, and my own, I’m a woman. Mm-hmm. I’ve also lived this. Um, and I think what it does is it begins to seep into our unconscious and tell us what we are worth and what we can reach for, and I’ve seen it limit women’s expectations of what they can get, and that’s in regard to a lot of different things. Career-wise, there might not be this overt, “You’re not pretty enough for this job,” right? There’s no s- there, th- w- we don’t currently, you know, it’s not the 1960s. We don’t currently have, like, physical expectations of, like, what a woman should look like to get a job. Mm-hmm. But it’s more insidious now. It’s kind of just built into the ways in which we develop our self-esteem, and. our self-esteem tells us how big we can be, how much space we can take up, the ways in which we can talk about ourselves, the ways in which we can confront people, that whole space at the table thing. You know, like teaching women to have a voice at the table, um, at work and say like, “Oh, no, this is horrible. Uh-uh, I ain’t doing that.” Personally, um, my mom would hate to see this, but I, I tell people I’m raised by wolves. All the women in my family are very dominant, and my mom was married, my, my dad and her were married for years and years and years until the day he passed away. Mm. And madly in love, and she is a woman that is very self-possessed, does not cower to anyone, and she also happens to be stunningly gorgeous. Like stunningly gorgeous. And, and so I learned from a very female-driven family, ’cause also my grandmother’s family was very female-led, and and back, and her mother was very a very dominant woman, and they were all married. You know, so it wasn’t like they were single women who were moving around saying, “I hate men.” They were women who were worshiped by the men in their lives, and also took up space. Yeah. Um, and so I can personally see how taking up space can be helpful, and how a lot of my clients have a harder time with that. And so it’s about teaching them how to take up space no matter where they are, how they look, you know. whether you’re in your ideal body, ’cause who’s really in our ideal body ever? We always find a way

Dr. Lisa: To There’s always something. Not like something,

Dr. Ally: And how do we learn to- Appreciate, accept, to even at some point love, because I think we can’t always move from really deeply having a deep disdain for something to having an overwhelming love. Like, it’s not like just say a few affirmations and all of a sudden the next day, “Oh, I love myself. I’m great, eh, eh.” You know? It just. Right? Like

Dr. Lisa: But I think with the heart of what I’m hearing you say is that there’s really a lot of work that we can all do to almost create some space between who the world thinks that we are and who we want to believe that we are, and that that relationship that we have with ourselves and feeling like it is okay to maybe it’s take up space or to feel worthy or to go after things, and not necessarily have what other people have decided about you already. Be part of your story to the same degree. Right. Is that the right way to say it?

Dr. Ally: I love that. I absolutely love that. Be part of your own story. That’s it. Create who you are. Yeah. I was, uh, doing some, uh, a little dive this morning into the differences between emic and etic. And when we’re studying populations or groups, emic is the, the way the group sees themself, and etic is the way in which a researcher or an outside group would. The, the values and the, the, the, the things that they would say about that group. And I’m working to make it more personal, right? Emic, how do I emically, personally see my identity, and how do others then- Begin to s- to make judgment on me from their perspective. And I actually used to do, uh, when I worked inpatient with these little. these little two-year-olds to, like, 12-year-olds. Mm. I know. They’re like the cutest little population, but they’re so sad. Yeah. I would have them do. I would, like, run groups all the time, and there were always art groups, and I had this one group I would run where I would have them draw an image of themselves, how they saw themselves on one side of the paper, and then how they think other people saw them on the other. And you have five-year-olds, eight-year-olds, making these profound statements with just in showing the difference between how they see themselves. They’re like, maybe they see themselves as, as really nice, but then they flip it over, and they have, like, devil horns, and they have bad, the teeth that are, you know, the, the, the demon scary teeth. And, or you have kids who see themselves as being that way. But others maybe see them as being a more positive or, um, and it really begins to help you see how external expectations, we have more of an awareness than we think about what we think people think of us. And physical appearance plays a bigger role in that than we think because it really, people begin to really think it defines a lot of us. Like, even with the, you know, I’m not gonna get too deep into it ’cause, girl, I’m, I’m following a trial in the news right now, right? People are, like, measuring the distance between her husband’s eyes and saying, like, “Oh, he must be gui- Yes.”

Dr. Lisa: And the bumps- Bumps on his skull. Yeah. How fascinating.

Dr. Ally: I thought we had gotten away from phrenology, but we’re right into it. Good. And there are a lot of people on social media who do talk about these types of things as being, you know, indicators of attractiveness. Canthal tilt, people are all talking about Canthal tilt. Oh my gosh. The tilt on your eyes. Um, and, uh, it’s, men are getting in on it. Now there’s this group of looksmaxxers I think I’m no longer on point with the question that you asked, but looks these, uh, young boys who are changing their appearance are trying to do all this so they can get girls and not have to do the hard thing, which is chit-chat talk, get to know, and actually build a relationship. It’s just like being so attractive that women are just gonna throw themselves at them. So we’re seeing ourselves at an interesting intersection right now.

Dr. Lisa: I mean evolutionary biology, history, culture. But what we’ve been talking about is what, what starts to happen on the inside when people buy into the story of who they need to be in an. unhealthy way. Oh, that’s good. Um, so while there is basis in reality for there being privileges that come with being attractive, there’s such a dark side when we get so caught up in this that we lose contact with ourselves. And so I, I got you to promise that you would- Take us into your, your perspective on this and, and what you might say first to someone who’s realizing, “I’ve given too much power away.”

Dr. Ally: Think, one, we sit in the reality that our bodies are not our identities, and it’s hard initially to separate the two. Yeah. But I, I do look at. I mean, this might sound a little spiritual, but I do look at my body as a, a vessel.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. A vehicle. I love that idea.

Dr. Ally: I am something for me that kinda lives in my head and around me. There’s these theories of consciousness, and I do talk to a diff- a, a good degree about consciousness in the book. Consciousness kinda lives i- around us and that we may potentially co-create it with the universe. There’s some, there are some theories out there. There are like 400 theories of consciousness. But I, I think s- having a, a healthy level of separation from that can be helpful. And one of the things that I talk about with my clients in particular is the importance of diversifying your self-esteem. That much like a bank account, you wouldn’t invest all of your money into one stock, right? ‘Cause what if something happens to Apple, now everything you’ve owned is gone. Right. You wanna make sure you’ve invested in multiple things. Mm-hmm. And so your self-esteem can’t only be residing in your physical appearance, because one thing about physical appearance is it changes. if you live long enough, you will not look the same as when you were born, period, point-blank. And so, you know, and as for women, you know, pregnancy hormonally, I don’t look the same on a, on a Monday to a Friday, you know? Mm. So it, there’s so many things that can happen that can change your, you know, the clarity of your skin, that can change all these types of things. And so we can’t place our entire sense of our identity in something that we know inevitably will look different.

Dr. Lisa: Right. You’re not standing on solid ground. You’re not- The phrase that’s coming up for me right now, so I, I had many different spiritual influences in my life growing up, and culturally Catholic. at least. Mm. And there was one phrase that would come, I think it was around, was it Palm Sunday, Ash Wednesday, one of those? But they, I know, I think it is Ash Wednesday. You can tell I’m, like, extraordinarily good at being Catholic, right? But they, there’s this little ash smudge they would put on you, and the priest would say, “From dust you come, to dust you will return.” And exactly this message that your body is temporary. What- whether you’re stardust or mud, whatever, like, a- and any pinnacle of beauty you may achieve will, nothing gold can stay, pony boy, and to get, like, too attached to that is not, um, a long-term plan. No,

Dr. Ally: Yeah. And, and we believe in most, I believe, I mean, I, I study a lot of religions. Um, by no means a expert in all things spiritual, but most spiritual beliefs that humans hold onto espouse that we are spirit, that we are, you know, like, you know, in the body. In the Bible it talks about Ruach, who is which is the spirit that is breathed into Adam by Yahweh God, and we are that, that essence that leaves this body at some point. And so m- I encourage clients, you know- That’s what we work on. The character the knowledge, the information. Why are we here? You know, uh, whatever your beliefs about life are, what is your purpose while living? You are more of an, again, just a collection of body parts, and if we really wanna break it down even more crassly, the way that we look at beauty now is really in the eyes of what makes men erect. And I’m more than some- because the minute you stop making men aroused is the minute you’re no longer attractive, right? So I am not that. That’s not my purpose for being on this planet. I don’t exist exclusively to make sure men feel good and excited when I walk by. I’m so much more than that. And just reminding people that, you know, we’ve connected intimacy and love to physical appearance, but there’s plenty of people who look all kinds of ways who find beautifully intimate, vulnerable, and meaningful love relationships, right? Yeah. It’s not only connected to a particular phenotype. And then in my research, ’cause it’s like, well, then what do we do? How do we do this, right? How do we do this beyond the. thing? Yeah. In my research, I found that the higher. And I, I studied initially Black women and white women, and then for my dissertation, I went on to just study, uh, and drill down into African American women and Black women. And what I found was that African American women had a higher sense of perceived body control, as measured by the objectified consciousness, uh, scale. Mm. And what that said to me was that we felt we could change our bodies, or at least we had the perception that we could change our bodies. And so in my dissertation, I drilled down and I said, “Well, let’s look at ethnic identity. Is, does that play a role?” And so I found the higher a woman’s ethnic identity, the more in control she felt of her body. Perceived control is the, the, the, the indicator that you might not actually be able to be three, three inches taller, but the perception that you could change your body from one state to another, change your hair, change your health, change whatever, uh, was there. And it’s a positively valenced experience, right?

Dr. Ally: Mm-hmm. Feeling control of your body. And so the, in the, the later stages of my book, I talk about how do we reclaim beauty? Mm. How do we take it back from the clutches of men trying to tell us that we are only to exist for their pleasure? And so one of the ways I do that is by encouraging people to become historians of their life. and their history and their lineage and their family, and understand, like, if someone talks about my nose, for example, this is my great-grandfather’s nose. That’s where I got it. Strong, proud, like a little hump there. This is his nose, and my grandfather had this nose, and my mom kind of, hers is a little different, kind of has this nose. And you don’t get to talk about my great-great-grandfather You don’t get. What do you mean? And who were these people? What did they do? What were their likes, their dislikes? And, um, and like for me, I’ve, I, I’m a museum person, so I I make a lot of museum metaphors throughout the book. And I sit in the reality that I’m a walking museum of my lineage. Of all the millions of people that came before me, they all did everything that they did so I could coalesce into my existence right now. And that, to me, is very fundamentally affirming and places a purpose and a value in me beyond just merely existing for the sake of existing. Yeah. Um, and so that’s one way that I talk about, like, how we kind of, like, get beyond this mere surface, because obviously, it makes a difference. I’m not gonna gaslight anybody and say it doesn’t. Um, but there’s more to it. There’s more to life than that. And so I have people, like, kind of, like, do some, like, I guess the term, like, ancestor acknowledgement, veneration, writing letters to the people that came before you a- you know telling them off if necessary or, or thanking them.

Dr. Lisa: But that’s so good though because it’s, it’s really a biological genetic legacy, and to really understand your physical form as being, you know, the, the point going through time right now that is a manifestation of all that legacy, and to have gratitude for it, or, or anger, whatever. But, like- Gratitude. you know, th- this, this is my em- literal embodiment of. my people. And to reconnect with that is a way of, um, having this identity and this experience of yourself that is not dependent on what other people believe you. Like,

Dr. Ally: There was this beautiful series of posts around the Olympics where they had women athletes who were all saying, like, “This is my body and it’s perfect for me, it’s perfect for what I need,” and it’s all these different types of bodies. Women in the Olympics that are, you know, starting at, like, 4’9″ going all the way up to 6’5″, 6 foot s you know, all of these different sizes, different shapes, different everything, and they’re saying, like, “Yeah, I am suddenly gorgeous.” Like, there’s this one woman, I can’t think of her name right now, but she plays rugby And she is a taller woman, she is a stronger woman, and she is stunningly gorgeous. And, and her body does what she needs it to do and she loves it, and she’s tall, and she wears heels. ‘Cause that’s one other thing, like a lot of our, our friends that are taller, you know, people are like, “Well, you don’t wanna be taller than a man. You’ve got to be flat shoes.”

Dr. Lisa: Oh, no. Yeah. That’s great that you really own it. Yes. Well, and you know, as, as we’re talking too, I’m thinking of, um, you might have heard this, especially if you’re, like, exploring the psychology of fashion design, but there’s, Coco Chanel is rumored to have said that people don’t even start to get interesting until they’re 40. I agree. And, and there’s like this whole other dim- I, I especially, you know, like starting to get older and, like. you know, ’cause now I can see younger women or younger men, and they’re objectively beautiful. Like they’re beautiful, skin, blah, blah, blah. And they’re not. They haven’t been around long enough yet to form a point of view or to, like, I don’t know, kind of there, there’s an interestingness. There’s just, like, this whole other layer on top of people. as they develop that I feel like is so important.

Dr. Ally: And I feel. I call that glamour. that’s glamour. There’s a difference between glamour and beauty. Oh. Beauty is what you’re born with. You show up, bone structure, eyes, face, whatever, right? Glamour is what you put on it. Oh. It’s the styling. It’s the coloring. It’s the type of makeup. It’s the way you carry yourself. Right? When I was in my 20s, I made a vested point to become a socialite So what I did was I studied socialites, and I said, “What do they do that’s different?” So I studied all types of people you could consider socialites, from courtesans to the girls in New York in you know, Studio 54. And-

Dr. Lisa: When are you gonna write that book? Because

Dr. Ally: My 20s were crazy. I also lived by The 48 Laws of Power for a year to see if I could become a sociopath. It did not work. How’d that. I am not a sociopath. I know for a fact. I care about people deeply. But you tried. Deeply. I. like that about you. I tried. Okay. I tried so hard. Didn’t work. But, um, but we. And so we can change the way people perceive us because, again perception is co-created with our environment with our culture. We can reshape the way people see the things that we do, and so we can add this glamour, this, this affectation, this, this wisdom, right? Mm. Um, so when it comes to, like, being in, you know, ’cause I’ve been in my 20s, I’ve been in my 30s, and now I’m just starting these 40s off, uh, they started a little jarring for me. But you gotta think, you just get your frontal lobe at, like, 25, 26. So before 25, 26, you’re in a lot of more chaos. It’s harder for you to kinda. see through to the other side of things. Like a. You’re, you’re, you’re in a larval stage. You’re learning. Like a baby. And let’s be real, those first eight years, you don’t remember much of anything. Those, the first eight years of your life, first, you know, 20, 20 years, you’re just kinda, like, trying to make it. Then in your 20s, you’re starting to find your rhythm. You’re starting to figure out your edges. What do I like? What do I not like? Let me try this out. Let me try that out. You’re exiting college, or you’re entering into a new ca- into your first-time career, internships, all these types of things. You’re doing everything for the first time. In paganism, they do, they call that, that’s the, um, the maiden phase. Yeah. Right? You have the triarchic structure of a woman’s life. You’re in your maiden phase. Everything is new. Everything is fresh. You’re an ingenue to even yourself. Then you enter, I think, in your, like, 30s, 40s, this mother stage. Doesn’t have to be actual physical motherhood, but it is the stage where now you’ve done things a few times, right? Like, I’m not up in arms about a lot of things ’cause I’m like, I’ve seen all these trends at least three to four times.

Dr. Lisa: Pants are big again. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. I

Dr. Ally: Mean, like, I’m like, I’m like, y’all can catch me. In 15 years, the trend’ll come back to me, so I’m just gonna stay here until the trend loops back.

Dr. Lisa: I’m gonna wait right here in my skinny jeans. It’s gonna come back around. Okay.

Dr. Ally: When I tell you I’ve thrown away zero pair of skinny jeans, I love them. I’ve thrown away zero. They’re all in my closet. Yeah. Yeah, and so it’s like it’ll come back, right? ‘Cause you’ve kind of been there. And then, like, I think Einstein even said, like, cognitively, on an intellectual level, you don’t really learn anything until your 80s. That’s when you start to be like, “Oh” Oh. “This is kinda making sense,” ’cause now you’ve seen things. seven times.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well, you have- Eight times. that neural network that, like- Mm-hmm Yeah.

Dr. Ally: And I’m waiting for that. Oh. I’m excited.

Dr. Lisa: This is such a good conversation. Dr. Ally, this has been such a pleasure. I could just talk to you all day long. I, I, I want to be respectful of your time. I know we need to wrap this up, but this has been just such a fascinating conversation, and a fascinating book, you guys. We’ve been talking about The Problem With Pretty with Dr. Allycin Powell-Hicks. And so Dr. Ally, somebody somebody wants more of this in their lives, obviously they can get the book everywhere I’m guessing. Yeah. But where, where do they connect with you? I mean, you have such a fascinating point of view. You’re such a wealth of information. where does somebody connect with you?

Dr. Ally: You can come to my website at allycinhicks.com. Okay, it’s spelled wild, everyone gird yourselves. A-L-L-Y-C-I-N, Allycin, and then Hicks, H-I-C-K-S, dot com. You can also find me @AllycinHicks on Instagram and @dr.ally, that is D-R dot A-L-L-Y, on TikTok. Okay. I definitely have a coaching business, and so that’s also on my website. You can look into that. And, um and I consult with corporations as well on these issues. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa: You do. And so I’m guessing, like guest speaking is part of what you do, coming into organizations and talking about how to manage some of this on a, a larger scale as part

Dr. Ally: Of your consult. As to relationships. dynamics between employees and, um, and now I’m, uh, getting ready to start doing some more beauty, like beauty research again. We’re opening back up. Oh. That is ve- and that’s the, very exciting. You’re hearing this first.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. You broke the news. Yeah. Well, I cannot wait to stay, to keep up with you and to see where your, just this brilliant mind and all this curiosity takes you next. And whenever you wanna come back and talk about it on Love, Happiness and Success, we are here for it.

Dr. Ally: Thank you very much. Thank you.

Dr. Lisa: What an inspiring conversation. Dr. Ally, she is such a gem. I love talking to her, and I hope that it was an interesting conversation for you, too. Um, but more than anything, I really hope that it helped you see, see some things differently, you know, that kind of cut through this fantasy, this trick that we’re all tricked into believing, right? That, that how we look really, really, really matters. I think that society can treat us differently depending on how we look, but there’s so much power that comes from, even if you want to recognize that, disconnecting how you feel about yourself from that narrative. Because the reality is that you were never meant to spend your whole life chasing someone else’s definition of beautiful, especially at the expense of the things that you know to be important and true. I mean, appearance matters in the world we live in. We’re all impacted by the messages around us, but being able to distance yourself from that and understand that you are so much more than the body you woke up in, to use Dr. Ally’s term, that is really, really empowering. And so, hey, if you’re listening to this and realizing that there are parts of yourself that you want to connect with more deeply, whether it is confidence, relationships, healing old patterns, or just getting more clear about who you are and what makes you interesting and amazing, no matter what your body looks like, there’s a lot of support for you through my practice, Growing Self. It is what we do. Every clinician that I work with is a very experienced, fully licensed therapist who can do mental health stuff, but honestly, they operate in a coaching psychology space. So coaching is the approach that we use when someone is not coming in necessarily needing treatment for a psychiatric condition, but really wanting to do the kind of work that we’re talking about today, answering questions like, “Who am I? What do I care about? Where am I now, and where do I want to go within myself, within my life, in my relationships, in my career? And most importantly, how do I make that happen?” Because that requires more than insight, more than talking. Ideas are fantastic. Self-awareness is wonderful, and that’s the first step. But then we need to pair it with a what’s next, and that is what happens in coaching, which is different sometimes than what happens in therapy. And so that’s what the clinicians that I work with specialize in. And so if that experience sounds interesting or exciting or helpful for you, we have so many opportunities. If you would like to work with one of our very experienced team clinicians, the way that starts is by coming to growingself.com to schedule a free consultation. You can meet with a clinician of your choice, you know, talk about what’s going on, uh, see if it feels like a good fit, see if they’re the right person to help you, and if so, move forward. We, we really want you to see how it feels before you decide. And we also have another really exciting situation that I’m so proud of. I have begun, over the last couple of years, training other therapists in coaching psychology and helping them become formally credentialed as board-certified coaches. And because therapists, again, they do not learn these competencies, they’re really different, and they’re important, and so that is a mission of mine. And as part of that, um, we have created a training experience for them that includes an eight-week-long practicum, opportunities to work with real clients through Growing Self through our Unstuck in Eight Weeks program. So, this is a limited engagement of eight sessions where you’re connected with a therapist who is doing our advanced coach training, and here’s the wild part. So, therapists that coach, they are like unicorns, and they’re. Oftentimes they, they command premium rates, like oftentimes two or three times what you pay for therapy because the outcomes are, are really what people are signing on for. However, in this Unstuck in Eight Weeks offer, you get eight sessions of one-on-one coaching with a licensed therapist, very powerful, very productive, very deep, for $49 a session. I know, it’s wild. So, if you are interested in learning more about that offer, you’re welcome to come and check that out as well. You can learn more about this program, see if it feels right for you, and if so, you can either enroll or get on the wait list. The one thing is we only do this five times a year, and space is really limited, so I hope that when you’re hearing this, we’re, we’re still able to serve you through this program. But again, we do it five times a year, so if you missed this round, put yourself on the wait list, and then you’ll be notified when the next opportunity becomes available. All right, my friend, thanks again so much for spending this time today with me and Dr. Ally, and I will be back in touch very soon with another episode of Love, Happiness, and Success.