What Is Coercive Control? How to Tell Consent From Coercion

AJ: Most of my focus is around serial killers, sexual violence, sexual sadism, psychopathy, intimate partner violence, sexual assault, serial offender behavior, and I’m also certified in investigative psychology. So, you know, the perfect person to come visit you at your wedding or at a dinner party or at that weird holiday event that you’re really uncomfortable at anyway.

Dr. Lisa: Here’s something that can be really confusing. A relationship can involve intense, unconventional, even edgy physical dynamics and still be really healthy, positive, and pleasurable for everyone involved. But for young people especially, relationship dynamics can create pressure around coercion, manipulation, making it even harder to recognize and speak up when something isn’t okay.

AJ: Well, then I see people who are just putting their hands around their partner’s throat thinking that’s what you’re supposed to do because the media says that it’s sexy and it’s not dangerous when it absolutely can kill you and it can kill you faster, it can kill you slow.

Dr. Lisa: That’s why on today’s show we’re doing a deep dive into what healthy consent looks like, what coercion and manipulation look like in contrast, how to get clear about our own boundaries, and how to recognize when something has crossed a line. And welcome to the show. I’m Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. This is Love, Happiness, and Success. And I’m here as a psychologist, marriage and family therapist, board certified coach, and professional who spends a lot of time with people who are trying to figure out what is actually happening in their relationships. And sometimes this can take a dark turn. And hey, before we dive in, I do want to make you aware that on this show we are talking about some more intense aspects of relational dynamics that include BDSM, consensual power dynamics, open relationships, polyamory, and what that looks like when it is healthy and good for all involved. But we’re also talking about what it looks like when it’s not okay. Coercion, intimate partner violence, abusive dynamics, and also practices that can lead to physical injury and even death. So in the spirit of informed consent, I wanted to make you aware of that so that you can decide if you want to come along for this ride. I hope you do. I think it’s a lot of really valuable and important information that I haven’t heard discussed openly elsewhere. And I think that we need to spread the word for people who might need this information. Maybe it’s for you. Maybe it’s for someone else in your life that you’re concerned about or who just needs to have all the information so that they can make good choices for themselves. So today I’m joined by AJ Greer. She is a researcher with a fascinating background. She does forensic work where she specializes in sadism, psychopathy, and intimate partner violence. She’s now a educator who is sharing her perspective with law enforcement, prosecutors, medical professionals on how to understand how to understand and understand the world. And she’s here today to share those insights with you. She’ll be illuminating facets of consent boundaries, coercive control, and when things do cross lines. But also what it really means to create relationships where both people feel safe and empowered. And by the end of this conversation, you’ll have more clarity around how to recognize unhealthy relationship dynamics, how to trust your instincts, and boundary conversations and also effective limits. So AJ, thank you so much for being here with me today. Thank you so much for having me.

AJ: I’m thrilled to be here.

Dr. Lisa: Well, you know, let’s just dive right into this. I mean, first of all, your background is so fascinating and I have to share that you and I kind of encountered each other in the wild. We were both at the APA conference and I think the first thing I saw was your guillotine earrings and I was immediately like, oh, we’re going to be friends. We started talking and then you turned out to be the most fascinating person I’ve ever met. So why don’t you share a little bit about yourself with our friends here before we dive into some of these questions?

AJ: Thank you so much. This is always the hardest part for me because I like have to remember all of the things that I do and I’m like, I’m just very excited to, I’m sorry, my cat just jumped up here. I’ve always been terrible at introductions in general because that’s what I like. I’m like, oh, I have all this knowledge. Wait, I have to talk about myself. So my background, I have a master’s in forensic psychology where I specialized in sex offender behavior and my thesis was basically focused around the implications for law enforcement investigations when somebody is psychopathic and has sexually sadistic behaviors. So of course, learning about sexual sadism, I had to learn about what the consensual version of that looked like. Yeah. I’ve also worked across rural Texas improving systems response and I got started in this field when I was working on the sexual assault and family violence investigators course in the state of Texas. I’ve worked as a researcher at the Texas Department of Criminal Justice. So I’ve done a little bit of everything, but most of my focus is around serial killers, sexual violence, sexual sadism, psychopathy, intimate partner violence, sexual assault, serial offender behavior, and I’m also certified in investigative psychology. So you know, the perfect person to come visit you at your wedding or at a dinner party or at that weird holiday event that you’re really uncomfortable at anyway.

Dr. Lisa: Why do you think it is so important to be having these conversations publicly and openly so that people can understand like this landscape and use it to make informed choices about what they want to get involved in or not?

AJ: So it’s super important because I think a lot of people in the world are interested in alternative sex practices. So like kink or ethical non-monogamy or those sort of things, but they get introduced by a partner or they get introduced by porn or media, which doesn’t show you what it actually means to be a participant in those groups, especially if you’re introduced by a partner and the partner hasn’t given you all of the information. So like in the kink community, they use risk aware consensual kink, which means you are educated on all the things you’re starting to participate in. And talking about it in public, one, it takes away the shame that someone who might have if they’re interested in alternative sex practices, because research shows that anywhere from like 40 to 60% of people participate in at least one kinky activity at some point in their life. So everyone, like a good chunk of people have tried it. So it takes away that shame and they can say, “Oh, okay, it’s okay for me to look into this.” And then that way, if they feel like it’s okay to look into it, they’ll look in places where they tell you how to do it safely. And that’s really, really important because you can get injured if you don’t know what you’re doing or if you haven’t looked into that education. And then you can build a community with other like-minded people. So you can have that kind of group that understands and give advice and be like, “This is why this is safe. This is why this is not safe. Here’s this thing you can try instead.” Yeah, definitely.

Dr. Lisa: Very passionate about it. Absolutely. I mean, to be informed and also like, I think understand the differences between things that are okay and not okay. And you know, one of the reasons that I was so excited to talk with you on the show is I think especially for young people who don’t have a lot of relationship history and are really still developing their own point of view and what do I like? What feels good to me? What do I want in a relationship? And honestly, haven’t answered a couple of those questions yet and then could get connected with someone who might be coercive, might be even dangerous and not really know the warning signs or how to manage that.

Dr. Lisa: Consent is a big part of these practices. Yes. Right? And there’s also a lot of risk and vulnerability around coercion, which can be very subtle. So what have you learned about the power of coercion and how it comes to people who fall under that spell, so to speak?

AJ: So coercion is probably one of the most insidious things you will ever see because it’s so subtle and having concrete evidence of it is very difficult. Right. Because when you are coerced into doing something, there is, it can consent, but there’s this external something that is pressuring you into it. It’s, “I’m too scared to say no. I’m scared they’ll break up with me if I say no. They gave me alcohol and drugs so I would be more compliant.” There’s these other little things, but on the surface, it can be like, “Oh, well, you just got drunk and now you regret it.” And that’s not really how that works. I have not met a lot of people, if any, who have been like, “Oh, yeah, I just regretted it.” Or if they regret it, they’re not going out and they’re saying, “Hey, I was assaulted.” That’s very uncommon. Actually, we find that false reports are anywhere from 1% to 3% of every report of sexual assault ever made. And those are really iffy numbers because it’s kind of hard to study, but the false report rate is incredibly low. But someone under the so-called spell of coercion, it’s been subtly overtime, especially in intimate partner violence. It’s little things. It’s the offender or the abuser manipulating the survivor’s thought process. And it’s very, very subtle. It’s just enough plausible deniability. It’s, “Oh, I didn’t actually say it like that.” And then it’s something small enough that it’s like, “Okay, well, I guess I’ll just let it go this time.” And then it’s like, “Okay, let’s see what the next thing they can get away with is.” And now suddenly, you’ve got all of coercive patterns and that’s just the emotional part. And it is fascinating to see and horrifying all at the same time because you really just have to look and look and look. And then you’re like, “Oh, I see the pattern.” And it can happen to anyone. It can happen to anyone who’s rich, poor, in power, out of power, middle class, man, woman. Most of our research shows violence on men against women, but again, that we’re just research is underdeveloped. But it’s like anyone has a risk of being coerced, especially by intimate partner. Not to say you shouldn’t date though.

Dr. Lisa: But go ahead and date anyway. It’ll be fine.

AJ: Look out for some, you know, red flags here. It’s up to you.

Dr. Lisa: Just be aware. Right. Well, but what I think is also so interesting in what you’re saying, and I just want to highlight this difference. You know, I think that there are some terms that are getting thrown around in our culture these days, like gaslighting or narcissist or abuse. And I will tell you as a professional marriage counselor, I’ve had people coming in and be like, “I think I’m being abused or they’re gaslighting me.” And I’m like, “No, I think they might have a different that they’re vocalizing, but this is actually not gaslighting or abuse.” But what you are talking about actually is that there is this multidimensional cluster of things that can fall under these really pathological power and control dynamics that are intended to diminish autonomy, to take away control, to even cause harm and maintain the ability to do that in a scary way.

AJ: That’s so interesting you say that because a lot of, I’ve talked to some couples counselors before, and one thing I’m always telling them is like, there is that aspect of like, it could be that disagreement and then you have to look at other aspects of what could be going on. Like, is he, are they having a disagreement and he also controls all the finances and gives her an allowance? Okay. I’d be a little bit more suspicious that then if it’s just a, you know, disagreement and they don’t have the same opinion on something, but there aren’t those other things present then yeah, you got to look at it a different way.

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely. But we talked a bit about the reality that even professional therapists frequently can sometimes struggle to understand what’s going on in relationships and tell the difference between healthy, consensual, alternative sexual practices that are positive for both people versus ones that really aren’t because I think sometimes to the untrained ear, any sexual activity that includes components of violence or power and control, other types of things are automatically raised red flags. And that’s just due to ignorance where people might, therapists could pathologize things that are within the realm of okay versus situations where people are like, I just had this experience and I’m not fully sure it was okay or not, or sometimes come in, really have it experience something very destructive, but that was under the of say BDSM and are like struggling within themselves to figure out if something was done to them or did I participate or what just happened.

Dr. Lisa: So I know that this is a lot to unpack, but I think that that’s the central question, right is how to get clear about what’s okay and not okay. So maybe we could start by talking us through from your perspective, what it looks like when there is consent and when both people are having a mutually agreed upon experience that they both enjoy.

AJ: This is my favorite thing to talk about. I talk about this probably once to twice a point, because it is confusing unless you don’t know the dynamics that go into it. So first things first is that there is extensive discussion. This is not something you don’t just meet up with someone and you’re like, I’m going to participate in consensual non-consent. And also consensual non-consent is the extreme end. That is not the first thing you jump into when you’re joining into Kink or BDSM. But one big thing is discussion, discussion, discussion, communication, communication, communication. It’s talking about what kind of mental health needs you might have. It’s talking about what physical health needs you might have. It’s talking about what your hard limits are and what your soft limits are and hard limits are things you absolutely don’t want to do. Soft limits are things you might be interested in trying in the future. It’s having a safe word or safe signal so you’re able to make everything stop right away. It’s having or following the traffic system. So you have a red light means stop, yellow light means slow down, and green light means keep going. It’s having a partner that you have that trust built with where they will do subtle check-ins as you go in through different scenes. And I’ve seen that play out so I went to KinkFest because crazy business write off by the way. I’m sure I’m going to get audited by the IRS. But while I’m not in the Kink community myself, I don’t think I would be a good educator if I don’t have an education that is provided by the Kink community and then incorporate that into the work that I do. And I always now have to clarify that I’m not in the Kink community because I’ve had individuals come and approach me. One in particular and I was like, “Oh, okay. That’s why I should probably clarify that because the poor guy was very embarrassed.” I was like, “Oh, no. I’m sorry.” But it was very… Anyway, but learning that information and when I went to go learn about the demonstrations, I watched the little check-ins with these two individuals who were demonstrating that particular type of play. And it was like subtle shoulder touches and you could see there was that mutual trust because trust and safety is pretty much everything. And everything that is done in a BDSM scene is done with enthusiastic and informed consent. So that’s a really big thing that you look for. And also specifically in BDSM where there’s paradigmics, the person that’s truly in control at the end of the day is the submissive. They are the one that gets to decide when stuff stops. They’re the ones that are… If there’s a total power exchange dynamic or like a 24-7 BDSM power dynamic exchange, the rules that are made are for the subs benefit. So it’s maybe the Dom and the sub have agreed that the Dom will technically decide what the sub eats, but that was at the request of the submissive because she’s been having trouble with her self-image and with eating disorder and stuff like that. So it’s really actually focused on her needs and what’s best for her. And it just kind of looks like he’s in charge. So it’s more of a caring aspect than anything.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. And for somebody to just enter into this conversation, like, “Wait, what?” Well, no power dynamics are a part of what is going on here. And what you’re describing is that when done well with a lot of communication and consent and for mutual pleasure and benefit, that it’s really quite positive. And so just to look at this from an outside perspective is we need to be able to see that. But also somebody listening who might be involved, you know, does what AJ is describing match the experience that you are having of being heard and respected and cared for or not?

AJ: Yes.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

AJ: The National Coalition for Sexual Freedom, who I know I talked about last time I spoke to you. Love them. They’re wonderful. They actually have some like kind of checklists for professionals who work with kinky or non-monogamous individuals to help them determine if consent was present. And it’s stuff like, “Do you feel like you can participate in safe sex practices? Do you feel like you can use your safe word?” All of these ways to help determine consent. And that’s, I mean, consent is everything. And all of that discussion. And I had a forensic nurse when I was presenting the other week, it was a sexual assault response team, that wonderful group. But she said at the end, she’s like, “I just have a comment. It just seems like there’s so much more discussion and respect that goes in in a true BDSM dynamic than even in mainstream or vanilla sex.” And I’m like, “I agree. If people would start having these type of discussions in a vanilla setting or mainstream setting, probably it would make relationships stronger and healthier because now you have that intimacy of communication and talking about your needs and wants. And you’ve gotten part over the hump of potential discomfort because now you’re connected on that level.” And I’m like, “Yes, let’s incorporate that safety and that discussion into everyday relationships or relationships that are mainstream and not alternative.”

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, definitely. Well, then just, and I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but like just off the top of your head, what might be another couple of things on that checklist that I’m asking for you know, little 20-year-old who’s like, “Yeah, what should this look like?” And so, tell me another couple of things, but then also where would people go to get trustworthy information in order to become more informed? Absolutely.

AJ: So there’s things like if you meet someone and you’re interested in that dynamic and they say, “Oh, I don’t believe in limits.” That’s a red flag because if somebody doesn’t have a limit, that means they’re probably not going to respect your limits and everyone has a limit. There’s all like humans are, boundaries are healthy and boundaries are everywhere. And there’s someone who’s like, “Oh, no limits.” If someone says you’re not allowed to use your safe word, that is straight up abuse. Like there’s always a way you can get out of things, even if you’re doing some of the more extreme things like edge play, consensual non-consent, there’s still a way for you to get out of that. And if you’re gonna, if somebody brings you in to the media community and immediately they want to do consensual non-consent with you, that would be a red flag for me because that is something that is way down the line when you’ve built a lot of trust with an individual. And you don’t have, you can be interested in that, but build the trust to go to that part because it is a lot, it can be scary. And also being aware of where you’re at in your own life and what you feel most comfortable with. Also looking if your partner is jealous and or maybe they’re trying to threaten to out you to your friends and family because you participated in a kink one time or two times or you’re in the kink community or you’ve disclosed that. There’s just so many different ways that you could kind of talk about it. And it’s also asking, because when I get a phone call, someone’s like, “Hey, we have a rough sex case and they’ve had kinky sex before or rough sex before, but she’s saying in this instance that she used her safe signal or safe word and it was ignored. And my thing is if somebody’s calling the police and they’re saying it’s a rough sex thing, most people in a healthy BDSM dynamic are probably not calling the police. But you can always find the best resources from the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom. They have tons and tons of resources. They do incident reporting. They have educational competency about kink.

Dr. Lisa: Amazing. Well, we’re definitely going to put links to that resource in the show notes so that people can find it. But I think this is just so good because you know, the other thing that’s coming up for me as you’re talking, I think especially in recent years, I think this has probably increased over the last 10 years or so. I mean, porn has always been around, but so many young people, their first exposure to sexuality even as early teens is through the imagery and videos where nobody’s having conversations about, okay, so what are we going to, you know, before and it’s just imagery and sometimes it can be quite intense. And so, you know, even I’m thinking if they don’t mean harm, if they have been acculturated to believe this is what it should be just by virtue of having learned through these, you know, videos or online stuff and could really unintentionally, I think, harm a partner. So even just putting this information in front of them to begin to develop awareness of when this is, you know, in a positive way, here’s what it looks like.

AJ: Yeah. Media has been, it’s been a headache for me and everyone who does any work around kink. So there was actually a study done by Herbenick out of, I believe it’s Indiana University, brilliant woman. She’s been looking at the cultural popularization of sexual strangulation. And a lot of articles, one, I think she looked at, I believe it was 28 articles, only two underwent review by a healthcare professional. None of the, there were very few that mentioned the risks that come with it as far as like death because that can happen.

Dr. Lisa: It’s, yeah, so let’s go ahead and just to frame this. So like, you know, I remember it was probably sometime last year, maybe young women were sharing that they had been strangled, just kind of out of the blue. And this was actually a thing. It was happening frequently. A lot of people were describing this and nowhere in that article was it like, Oh, by the way, that can kill you and you should never do it at all. So tell us what you know about strangulation in, you know, sexual encounters or otherwise.

AJ: So there is a difference between strangulation and choking, but a lot of people will use the term as a reference to strangulation, which is always something that professionals need to discern when they’re talking to people, they’re saying choking, is it actually blocking the pass this way or is it the external pressure? So strangulation is the external pressure and it can impede airflow or blood flow. It is, I believe it is a felony officially in all 50 states at this point. So there is no, like it is illegal to strangle someone. And basically what can happen is it causes loss of oxygen or loss of blood flow to the brain. Well, our brains love oxygen and blood. Go figure. Yeah. And unfortunately, or fortunately, our necks are very fragile. So it takes about the same amount of pressure as cracking a can of coke that can cut off that blood flow or circulation. And then it’s the, it’s one of the, like a huge tools in intimate partner violence to enforce it’s also a huge lethality indicator. There’s research that suggests if somebody is strangled by their partner, their increase of homicide or intimate partner homicide increases by 750%.

Dr. Lisa: Actually, hold on. We need to take a quick break, AJ, but on the other side of this, I’d love to go more deeply into this again, just to raise awareness of like, how, how do you know if what’s going on is really not okay, especially if it’s in this, this gray space? Is that all right? Yeah, absolutely. So you guys today, we’re talking with a very special guest, AJ Greer, who is an expert in the difference between the light and the dark when it comes to intimate relationships. So AJ, before we took a quick break, you were about to go into more detail around some of the signs that what you are experiencing is consistent with intimate partner violence. Take us into what some of those rangers are.

AJ: So we were just talking about strangulation, which is a huge one, especially when I’m looking at my consensual sexual status in the kink community, they’re less likely to use strangulation compared to my violent criminals outside of the kink community. But there’s also things like a danger assessment that a lot of advocates and law enforcement agencies will use. So it can include things like has the physical violence increased in severity or frequency over to help determine if in person is at risk of being murdered by their intimate partner. So it’s stuff like presence of a weapon. So presence of a gun actually increases risk. The studies have changed a little bit, but the last time I saw this statistic is that it increased the risk by 500%. It’s also heavily done in an intimate partner violence setting. There’s also usually a presence of a gun in there. That may be a Texas based statistic because I’m based in Texas, but it is something where if I hear those two things together, I’m like, “Okay, I’m concerned.” And there’s stuff like, “Did he threaten to kill you? Has he threatened to kill himself? Is there use of drugs? Have you ever forced to have sex with him or her?” Again, it’s based on violence from men against women. That’s why you hear me use gendered language. I always like to clarify.

Dr. Lisa: For people who have never been in this situation from an outside observer, looking at someone who is in an abusive relationship and a coercive relationship or even a manipulative situation, it looks so toxic from the outside. They’re like, “What are you thinking?” But the reality is that the experience of being in those relationships is in large part defined by being unhooked from your own good judgment that you legitimately don’t know. One of the primary characteristics of an abusive relationship is actually isolation. It is a set of manipulative and coercive techniques that make you question your own judgment, particularly when you have to be a servant to somebody that you are bonded with and maybe are looking to to help you understand the world. It can be very easy to substitute someone else’s judgment or desires for your own in that situation, again, particularly for not just younger people, but for anyone with some of these relational vulnerabilities. That is also why what we see is that it’s very, very difficult for people to get out of these relationships or to leave because of this internal experience that’s going on, blaming yourself, believing the partner’s life, like, “Oh no, you liked that,” or “No, we agreed on that,” or “Why didn’t you say something?” There’s a lot of nuance here that’s deeply psychological.

AJ: There’s also something really important I like to bring up is that if there is– and I learned this from a woman who was teaching an intro to intimate partner violence class– the safest place when a dragon is breaking through the window is behind the dragon. So that is being with that partner is that’s better the devil you know than the devil you don’t. When you have to leave a partner, you are throwing away everything. I don’t want to give up my whole to go into a shelter or to go into some other situation. That’s really, really hard. It’s hard just to move houses. I would know I’d moved like six months ago. So, asking a survivor who’s already undergone all these things, like you mentioned, isolation, the blaming, the taking on this weight, the erasure of their own existence because they’ve been gaslit into this other. They’ve got all of these things going on in addition to now you want me to give up my whole life that I know because survivors know how to navigate that situation better than any of us ever will because they have survived this long. So now it’s the part of getting out. It’s really, really hard. And I always think about like, there’s nothing wrong with loving someone and wanting them to not hurt you. Nobody is at fault because you love someone and they’re choosing to harm you. The blame is on them. They are causing the harm. They are inflicting pain on you and you did nothing wrong because you love them. It’s like a child who’s experienced abuse from their parents and they have that really complex situation of, I still love my parent even though they did something awful to me. And that’s never the survivor’s fault. That is always the abuser’s fault.

Dr. Lisa: So I know that a lot of work that you do is related to education, particularly law enforcement. And I know that you’re working with the nurses. Why is it so important for you to help these people who are dealing with survivors or going to crime scenes have the kind of visibility that you have in these moments?

AJ: So I love teaching criminal justice entities because a lot of what I talk about is not super well known. It can be really uncomfortable for people to talk about because you hear the word rough sex and you’re like, “Oop, oop, what do I do?” And so a lot of times prosecutors are like, “I don’t know what to do with this case. It’s kink. I don’t know anything about kink.” And we get on there and the victim is going to be berated, but now they have that information. Or if law enforcement’s doing investigations, now they can see, “Oh, I know what consent would look like if this was truly rough sex or a kinky relationship. This does not look like that.” I’m looking at all this context of it’s all him in charge with nothing taking the sub consideration. It’s all, you know, he strangled her and that’s already a felony in Texas. So it’s them knowing these different things and then now they’re able to talk about it with others

Dr. Lisa: and they’re able to be informed. No, that makes so much sense. And what you’re saying is for somebody to come forward and say, “I was assaulted. I was raped. I was the victim of violence,” ever than the other person who say, “Oh, no, we do that all the time.” This was like totally consensual in the context of BDSM to help people understand like what is normal or positive or healthy in that space versus what is not okay and to have that way of understanding.

Dr. Lisa: What I’d love to just get your insight around are some of the warning signs that you have come to understand are indicators that you may be entering into or in a relationship with someone who is very, very, very unsafe.

AJ: It’s looking for subtle things. One of the things that I always talk about is lies by omission. So when you first start seeing someone, people typically put their best foot forward and they may lie by omission and you’re not going to necessarily be able to tell right off the bat.

Dr. Lisa: Define the term. What does lie by omission mean to you?

AJ: So to me, when someone lies by omission, it means that they don’t give you all of the information because they know you might have a different opinion or different take if they gave you all of the information. They leave stuff out. They leave stuff out. Yes, that’s the best way to describe it, but it’s also one that’s really hard to catch and it may be a couple months into dating before you start seeing that pattern. It’s someone who…

Dr. Lisa: Why is that important? I mean, is it like leaving anything out or…

AJ: It’s something specifically that they know you would change your mind about either having intimacy with them, continuing to date them, continuing to want to be around them, and they choose to leave it out rather than letting you decide for yourself.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, they are removing your ability to practice informed consent because you don’t have all the information and they know it would be a deal breaker.

AJ: Yes, exactly. That’s a huge general red flag for me overall. It also irritates me. I’m like, “I believe that people are adults and they should have all the information.” It’s also okay if something doesn’t work out. It doesn’t need to be. You can have differences of opinions on things and you can talk about it. That’s what you should do in a healthy relationship. Jealousy is a big one. Jealousy is always one that is like, “Oh, let’s take a step back,” or it’s saying that your partner can’t wear something, or there’s smaller insidious ways that jealousy comes in. They’ll trick you into saying, “Oh, I’m not feeling really well,” but you come back from going out and they look a little sick, but they’re not fully sick. There was not really a need for you to come home, but there’s plausible deniability.

Dr. Lisa: That’s something offender- You can tell you are being manipulated through lies, actually.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. I’d love to hear your perspective on another relational dynamic that is becoming increasingly common where there can be coercion, manipulation, power, and control that can sometimes be hard to see, even for therapists. That is related to polyamory, open relationships, or situations where people are put into consenting to things, relationship agreements that sometimes they’re not always fully comfortable with. Can you take us into that?

AJ: Absolutely. I actually know plenty of people who are polyamorous and truly ethically polyamorous. Yes. I’ve also seen the individuals who claim that they’re ethically polyamorous and they’re not. They’re just trying to cheat on their partner or they’ve coerced their partner into doing it. It really has the same dynamics as… This is a two-parter, so I’ll talk about what it means to be actually ethical and consenting.

Dr. Lisa: What does it look like when it’s positive and everybody’s having a good time?

AJ: It is delightful. I love hanging out with my polyamorous friends. I’ve even asked them, I’m like, because for me, I’m like, “That seems like a lot of emotional labor to have so many partners.” It’s really big like everything else in alternative sex practice or alternative relationship practices. It’s communication and it’s still talking and it’s still caring about that person. A lot of people will look down on polyamory because they’re like, “Oh, you just want to cheat on your partner. You don’t know how to be faithful,” blah, blah, blah. These are some of the most loving and healthy relationships I’ve ever seen. Whereas the monogamous person who is cheating on their partner every other week, maybe they should try doing anything else. That’s clearly what they’re doing is hurting someone else and they’re just not caring about that. Whereas polyamorous people are caring about the person that they’re with.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. That’s a healthy one. Good points. I would say even in open relationships too, to have that really healthy communication, checking in, is this okay with you? Also, what do we do with feelings? Because even in consensual open relationships, things like jealousy, insecurity, a need for affirmation, validation, checking in, that needs to be part of it. I will tell you that what I have seen that does concern me as a couples counselor, somebody, a couple coming in to me talking about opening up their relationship, something like that. When you really dig in deeper, it’s being driven by one person who’s real motivated to open up a relationship. The other person feels like they need to go along with it in order to maintain the relationship with their partner. But that’s when it does actually start to take on this coercive element for me because it’s coming from a fearful place. It feels like they need to consent rather than it’s something that they want.

AJ: So that’s 1000% coercion. That’s consent has been removed because there is that component of fear. The presence of fear removes consent. So with that coercion being done of like, “Well, marriage is never going to work out unless we open it up.” Of course, that’s a condition. Yeah, you’ve now put a condition on that both parties are not consenting. One person is not consenting to that. So that is a violation of boundaries. In my opinion, that is abusive. If your partner’s not comfortable with that, then you got to figure that out. You either have to split up or you have to decide what is going on there, but you can’t tell someone, “I’m going to leave you or this relationship is not going to work unless I’m allowed to sleep with other people.”

Dr. Lisa: Absolutely. And also, I mean, just there could be so many other factors. The financial control that you mentioned a while ago, if somebody is totally financially dependent on someone who now wants an open relationship, like all kinds of complexity. And I’ll also add, when it comes to that, like somebody who’s being unfaithful to their partner, I think another way of thinking about it’s not even the sexual activity itself or being involved with somebody else. If it was consensual, like who cares in some ways, it’s really more about that you were depriving your partner of the opportunity to engage in informed consent because they didn’t know what you were doing. And would they still want to be with you if they did know what you were doing? It’s like, that’s the point around open communication. Yeah.

AJ: Absolutely. And that’s a really great point because removing informed consent, that’s a huge problem. And if you truly care about your partner, don’t you want to be comfortable knowing your partner is going to pick you no matter what? That’s what a healthy relationship, not no matter what, obviously there’s things there, but like, it’s a choice. Loving each other is a choice and you need to know that other person to make that choice. And removing that information is taking away somebody else’s choice and no one has the right to do that to another person.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. And I think that that’s maybe the through line through all of this when we’re thinking about coercive control versus consent or abusive relationships or even what we were just talking about polyamory, non-monogamy. The through line is, do you have all the information? Are you educated about what, not just what healthy looks like for other people, but taking some time to think through, what does it mean for me? What am I enthusiastically consenting to versus what am I not actually comfortable with? And I think say, and for the millionth time, especially if as a young person, maybe just starting to navigate relationships, you know, late teens, early twenties, you don’t have a lot of history. Many times people don’t fully have the answers to some of these questions until they’re much older, I would say later twenties, even into their thirties or beyond. And so just to be patient with yourself and notice what you like, what you don’t, and validate your own feelings and have that honestly be what you listen to at the end of the day, rather than substituting someone else’s feelings or judgment for your own and doing your research. And if something doesn’t feel good, like honoring that.

AJ: And being very kind to yourself, knowing that it’s life is a learning process and it’s a hard one and you’re gonna make mistakes, you’re gonna be confused and being kind and understanding yourself and moving forward with self-compassion, which is really hard for people. People are terrible at self-compassion.

Dr. Lisa: I know, we beat ourselves up.

AJ: Yeah. And just know that like, if you are uncomfortable with something and you’re confused about it, you’re well within your right to talk about it. And if it’s something that does need reporting and you want to report it, you can do that. It is your life, but you know, listen to yourself and be soft with yourself.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, such good advice. What advice or perspective would you have for somebody listening to this, who’s maybe not so much listening for themselves, but cares very much about someone that they’re worried they are in an abusive relationship or in a coercive situation where there’s harm being done, but they’ve also kind of like drunk the Kool-Aid, you know what I mean? And what would you do there if this was your friend and you were worried that they were not okay?

AJ: So one key thing is you cannot force someone to leave. They have to choose to do that on their own and that’s really hard for people to carry. And it’s also having patience in keeping that line open. And there’s always this fine line of walking, like when it becomes too much for the friend who’s witnessing it, sometimes they want to cut off. And I understand everyone has their boundaries and that’s okay. But also if you’re able to keep that line open, even if it’s very small, so that they have that support if they do choose to leave, having that

Dr. Lisa: openness there. So you’re talking about like how stressful it can be to maybe have a friend who’s not okay, but also not willing to do anything about it. And that yeah, we could say, okay, so I’m going to limit my contact with us. Maybe let this friendship go. But what you’re saying is be the lifeline.

AJ: Yes. And it doesn’t, you don’t have to be prominent. You still should take care of yourself. Of course. But I know that when I’ve talked to survivors, them having even that one friend, even if they don’t talk every day, even if it’s not a consistent friendship, knowing that they can call that person and be like, okay, I need help. And also understanding that being in an intimate partner violence relationship is really complex. And maybe they go back to the offender and that’s okay. That this is their life and they’re, you’re there to help them to the best of your ability, giving them referrals to services. So like telling them like, Hey, why don’t you check out the domestic violence hotline? They have some, a list of different things that might point out to the relationship or asking your friend like, Hey, have you ever Googled intimate partner violence behaviors before? Cause I find consistently across individuals who survived intimate partner violence. At some point they’ve looked up, what are the signs that I’m being abused? And so bringing up small things and also being really compassionate. And I understand it can be frustrating, but also knowing that they, they are also going through a hard time and being there for them when you can be.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. And Hey, let’s do a plug right now for thehotline.org. This is a publicly funded free resource. It’s available for everyone. The web address is the hotline, T H E hotline.org. And on this site, you can chat or text with a counselor who has specialized training in domestic violence. They can connect you with resources locally. There’s all kinds of information. You can take assessments, learn more about unhealthy relationship dynamics, signs of abusive relationships, power and control. And even to the point where they could help you make a safety plan, get you connected to shelters in the event that you really did need to get out of there. Or also even just start the conversation, start educating yourself. Even if you’re not ready to do anything about it now, you know, one of the most insidious things about these dynamics is that they make you question your own judgment and your own perceptions of reality. And so to get outside information in these moments for people like AJ from thehotline.org from some of the other websites that you mentioned, AJ is just so valuable because it’s like, no, here’s trustworthy information that can help you understand your own experience. Yeah.

AJ: Absolutely. A couple other plugs would be rainn.org. I can never remember the full name right off the top of my head. Hang on. I pulled it up. I think it’s the Rape, Abuse, Incest, National. They also have a national headline and they focus on sexual violence and they put out some really great statistics. And then of course, ncsfreedom.com, that’s National Coalition for Sexual Freedom for anyone who’s interested in learning more about the kink community and that sort of work.

Dr. Lisa: Definitely. Okay, AJ. So I know we need to wrap up here, but please tell people more about your work and what you can do as an educator in their communities or like, tell us more about that.

AJ: Absolutely. So I provide a lot of trainings. I love talking to people. I can do anything from a customized 30 minute training to a customized eight hour training or multiple day training. I cover pretty much everything from intimate partner violence, sexual violence, BDSM versus non-consensual violence, serial killers, serial offenders, technology abuse, pretty much anything related to what can be considered gender-based violence or violence against particular population or really just that type, that group of violence. So please feel free to go to my website. It’s www.greearesearchandconsulting.com. I can also do expert witness testimony for a variety of things. I’m happy to send people a copy of my CV. And as far as research goes, I’m always trying to grow research. I always look for their interest in doing something like applied research as well. And while particularly my trainings can be focused on criminal justice, I train therapists. I can train community members if that’s something they need. I’ve trained military before, so a lot of different diverse groups. And I will talk to anyone that is interested in listening.

Dr. Lisa: I love it. You’re obviously so passionate about bringing these things out into the light, you know, that are not oftentimes part bringing people trustworthy information so that they understand it. I’ll also just do a quick reference. So, AJ, we talked on my other podcast, Love, Happiness, and Success for Therapists, where we were talking specifically about this knowledge gap for many therapists who might be working with clients who are reporting having some of these experiences and for therapists to understand enough, particularly like BDSM or kink culture or norms in order to be a helpful guide for somebody navigating these spaces without over-pathologizing, but also to be able to say to a client, like, no, that doesn’t sound right, and affirming, you know, their experience of being in a coercive or manipulative or unsafe situation. Because again, it’s not always very obvious if we just look at the behaviors on the surface without understanding the deeper dynamics. Okay, so all the education, so greerconsulting.org.

AJ: Greerresearchandconsulting.com. Greerresearchandconsulting.com. Okay. You can also find me on LinkedIn or on Instagram. I finally, my Gen Z marketing friend was like, we’re doing this.

Dr. Lisa: AJ, thank you so much for your time today for sharing your expertise and perspective with the audience here. Love, happiness, and success. It’s always such a pleasure. I mean, it’s very I’m

AJ: always happy to talk about it. And I’m very appreciative that you had me back on the podcast and on this podcast. And I’m like, yes, I get to talk more. So just a really great podcast. And I’ve sent all my friends to it. I’m like, Hey, check this out. Like, I think it’s fun to listen to. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Dr. Lisa: What an amazing conversation. I don’t know about you, but I thought that was so interesting. Right. And, and something that I haven’t really heard discussed in other places. So I’m just so glad to be able to bring this to you. The headline here for me, I don’t know. I hope for you too, is that healthy relationships are always built on freedom, trust, the ability to make fully informed decisions about what you want to participate in consent, but also the ability to be fully yourself, meaning the ability to say yes or no, and also the ability to be fully informed. And so I’ll just say, if this conversation brought something up for you, take a moment to reflect and ask yourself, do I feel safe, respected, and empowered in my relationships? And if you’re like, I’m not sure, just know that that might be worthy at the very least of additional exploration. I will also say that listening to this conversation might have put you in contact with an awareness that you have experienced something that was harmful, damaging, or even traumatic for you, and that there might be some after effects of that. And also to just recognize and respect that and know that there’s a way to work through this with a trusted professional who will not judge you and can help you process what happened and use the experience as a way of being more self aware, more resilient, and more able to navigate these situations in the future. And that’s what I would want for you. Certainly, if you’d like to do any of this work with one of the therapists in my network at Growing Self, you are so invited. In particular, I would encourage you to connect with one person on my team who’s a close colleague, and I’ve been with her for years. Her name is Dori, and she has substantial specialized training, education, and experience in the realm of sexuality. You can scroll back through my feed for recent interviews with Dori where she talks about different facets of this, but she would be a fantastic person to talk about, particularly if you are incorporating alternative sexual practices into your lifestyle, or if you or your partner want to engage in polyamory, open relationships, or if you have been in situations where there were some dynamics at play that put you into one of these vulnerable positions, and you’re trying to sort through what you’re comfortable with and what you’re not in terms of your intimacy. So if you’d like to speak with Dori, come to growingself.com forward slash Dori, that is D-O-R-I, or more generally speaking, come to growingself.com and just schedule a free consultation with any clinician on my team to talk a little bit more about yourself, your hopes and goals, and find out whether or not they’re the right person to help you. All right, you guys, that is a wrap. Thanks so much for spending this time today with me and AJ. I hope this was helpful for you, and again, please, please, please pass on to anyone you think might also benefit from hearing the information that AJ shared, particularly if you’re worried about them. All right, that’s all for today. I’ll be back in touch next time with another episode of Love, Happiness, and Success.