Boundaries in Relationships

Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: This is Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, and you’re listening to the Love, Happiness and Success Podcast. 

[Relearn Me by edapollo ft. Akacia plays] 

That was the song Relearn Me by edapollo. I’m not quite sure how to pronounce it. But the song is gorgeous. And it’s the perfect, I thought, introduction to our topic today because today we are going to be talking about how to create and maintain healthy boundaries in relationships. And I know that this is a topic of great importance because we hear about it all the time from our therapy and coaching clients. Here at Growing Self, a lot of people are working on this. And we’ve also had so many listener questions come through on Instagram, Facebook, on the blog at growingself.com around how to establish healthy boundaries in a way that allows you to have positive, high-quality relationships and maintain really good connections with others. 

That is where we’re going on today’s episode of the podcast. And I am so pleased to include in our conversation today, my dear, dear friend and colleague at Growing Self, Kathleen Stutts. Kathleen and I have worked together for many years. And Kathleen is a true expert on the subject of healthy boundaries. She is a licensed professional counselor here. And she also does team training for us from time to time. And we have people from all over our group come and sit at Kathleen’s feet to learn how it’s done. And today, she is sharing her wisdom with you. So Kathleen, thank you so much for being here.

Kathleen: Hi, thank you for having me. I’m happy to be here. 

Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: I can’t wait to talk with you about this topic of how to create healthy boundaries. I know that you frequently do this work with your clients. Again, you train others around this. But I can also attest to somebody who has had a personal relationship with you for many years, that you live it.

Kathleen: Thank you. Thanks very much. I take that as a very, very good compliment. That means a lot to me. 

Dr.Lisa: It’s good. You really—you’re like a role model for me. I’m like, “I wish I could be more like Kathleen.” Because you have so much clarity around what you can do, what you can’t do. And when you say no to me, like I feel happy anyway. There’s something about the way you say it.

Kathleen: Definitely one of my passion topics, a topic I’m passionate about. And I love to talk about it. So I’m happy to be here. 

Dr. Lisa: That’s wonderful. Well, what do you say we just, we take it from the top? Because I think sometimes just the term boundaries gets thrown around all over the place to mean all kinds of things. So from your perspective, what do boundaries mean? What is a boundary in the sense of, you know, what we do? Because sometimes, like an aside, sometimes I think people use the word boundaries. It’s like telling people—telling other people what to do can be a boundary, or like, yeah. Like don’t say this to me, it could be like a boundary. But what do you think of as being like a boundary? A reasonable boundary? Right.

Kathleen: Right. You’re so right. I can’t tell you how often I hear professionally, but personally, too, people have so many different, either negative associations with boundaries about you know that’s a barrier. It means that something is wrong. It means conflict, or just complete, you know, they come by it, honestly. But just misunderstandings about what boundaries are. So, to me, a boundary is, it’s this healthy and clear understanding of what you need to do to take care of yourself, what you’re in control of, and what you’re not in control of. 

It’s just this healthy, clear understanding of the things that I can empower myself around versus the things I need to practice radical acceptance around or letting go of. So having that understanding between you and any person in your life, in any situation. I know that sounds very abstract, right? But that’s because we can use boundaries and we can assert boundaries in so many different ways, in different situations. And they do change and flux in different relationships as needed. Right? So we can get into the details of it more. But from a starting point, that’s sort of the general way that I think about boundaries. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Thank you for clarifying that. Yeah okay. So then, let’s start with this other question. Why do you think so many people, particularly women, but many men too, really struggle to have that clarity that you describe? Then also communicate that effectively to others that just the whole thing feels incredibly—to people? Why? Why is that so hard?

Kathleen: I think it’s because, and I’m going to say we because I think this is a human experience, you know? I think it’s because we’re afraid of losing people, honestly. And whenever I talk with people about what is so scary about boundaries, that’s always where they go. Now ultimately, “I’m afraid people won’t like me.” “I’m afraid it’s going to cause an argument” or “I’ll lose that relationship.” 

Because we are wired to attach and we need people as the social creatures that we are, I think the fear of putting those relationships at risk is what underlies the fear of setting boundaries and being assertive. Because there are misconceptions around what boundaries are, what assertiveness is, and what it can do for us. People think that it is a threat to those relationships rather than something that protects them, which I think is a misunderstanding—an unfortunate misunderstanding. But ultimately, that fear of losing people I think, is really what makes it scary. 

Dr. Lisa: That is so insightful. There’s almost a subconscious thing. It’s if I say no, or if I ask for what I need, it’s going to damage my relationship with you. You’re saying that is a misunderstanding. This actually brings me to another question. So one of the things that I loved so much, I love so many things about your team training that you did with us on this topic. But you had this saying in your presentation, which is that “Good, decent people set boundaries.”You have this as like a concept. And I wanted to ask you, why do you think it’s so important to teach people, to teach our clients that good people set boundaries? 

Kathleen: Wow. Because one of the misunderstandings that’s so prevalent around assertiveness and boundary setting is that it is aggressive, or mean, or even overly confident, or bully-ish and that you don’t set boundaries, if you’re nice. Or you can’t be nice to people and be liked by people, and be assertive. I think what’s happening there is that there’s a confusion between assertiveness and aggressiveness. You know, you mentioned earlier people using the idea of boundaries is telling people, “You can’t do that to me”, or “You can’t say that to me.” That’s not that’s not really assertiveness. That’s a little bit of bullying, actually. And so, I think, all of the confusion between assertiveness and aggressiveness leads to the idea that you can’t be nice and set boundaries, which just simply isn’t true. And as a matter of fact, to be nice, I think you really even need to set boundaries. Right? 

If I’m not setting boundaries, I’m going to grow and I think we’re all good. I’m sure many people have experienced this personally. We grow tired, we get burnt out, we grow resentful. This can be in our personal lives, in our professional lives. We’re not very nice, and we don’t show up as our best selves. We don’t have anything left to give the people that that we do care about. Right? So I think that the misunderstanding, or the confusion between assertiveness and aggression is the underlying cause there. But that in fact, to be nice, we actually need to set boundaries. 

Dr. Lisa: Oh, I love the way you say that. Like you’re not doing anybody any favors by not setting boundaries. That really when you don’t set boundaries, it’s impossible to show up as I mean—I hate to use this phrase but this is what’s coming to mind—but as like your best self in relationships because you’re going to be exhausted, and resentful, and depleted, if you’re not able to know what your limits are and communicate those. So that’s part of having positive healthy relationships is actually being good at boundaries. Those two things go together. 

Kathleen: Yes. As a matter of fact, right? What can happen is if we are—if we tend to be people pleasers, and have anxiety in our relationships around that. Say around how our relationships are going, being liked by people, making sure there’s no conflict, that there’s always harmony, that we’re in a good space. If you find yourself feeling worried or anxious about that, and not saying “no,” or setting boundaries, because of that, what that actually tends to lead toward are the very, very fears and problems in those relationships that we’re so scared of happening. Right? It kind of becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Dr. Lisa: Oh. Yeah, I can see that. Well, and another theme that I’m hearing as we’re talking is this concept of assertiveness. We could probably talk about assertiveness versus aggressiveness. But first, you’ve used that word a lot. What do you mean by assertive? 

Kathleen: We are assertive when we treat ourselves with respect, when we respect our basic human rights and means, while also respecting the rights and needs of others. When we do that, we’re being assertive. We’re also opening up the opportunity to have clear and open communication, and compromise, and negotiation with the other person on how we can achieve that win-win where we can both be treated with respect and both take care of ourselves in that situation. But in a nutshell, assertiveness is when we’re taking care of ourselves while respecting other people.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Kathleen: Aggression, on the other hand, is when we are taking care of ourselves while not respecting the basic rights, or needs, or boundary of the other people in this situation. 

Dr. Lisa: That makes so much sense. I’ve never thought about it that way. That the core aggression is taking care of you without thinking about the person on the other end of it. 

Kathleen: Yes. On the other end of that spectrum, when we’re being passive, when we’re taking care of others and putting their needs first to the detriment or neglect of our own. Right? So we kind of end up with this sort of continuum here. With passive on one end, aggressive on the far other end. Assertiveness is that sweet spot—that balance right in the middle, where we can say, “I’m okay and you’re okay”, and hold space for each other’s feelings and needs, knowing that we’re each responsible for ourselves. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Oh, and I’m glad that you just use that word—that responsibility—because I’m hearing that to be assertive, it requires a high degree of like, self-awareness, respect for self, respect for others. There’s like this responsibility component. Whereas, I kind of got this sense when you were talking about the passive perspective that it’s people like, and well-intentioned, like really legitimately doing what they feel is best and trying to prioritize relationships. Maybe you’re trying to be the “nice person”, but they’re in some ways, like, by over giving or not having almost like having more respect for other people than themselves. There’s like this abdication of responsibility a little bit. Have you found that? Yeah.

Kathleen: Yeah, absolutely.. It is our responsibility to take care of ourselves. Just that in itself is a new way of looking at things, I think sometimes. But absolutely. It’s kind of like, if you’re at work for example, and you try to do everything, you know? You try to do everything all at once, and you try to do everyone’s job because you want to be really great at what you do, you end up not doing some of the basic things you really need to to get to, or a lot of things fall through the cracks. Right? Because we can’t do it all. In fact, and this analogy, taking care of other people’s basic needs and rights is not really your responsibility. Because it’s not really in your control and it’s not realistic. So trying to do it means that while you might have the best of intentions, you end up neglecting this core sort of foundational responsibility over here, which is you. That is in your control. Right? With the best of intentions. With that really important piece that sort of the foundation of the rest of your life gets neglected. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Well tell us more about the emotional experience of having that kind of, to use your word passive orientation—because I think that people who sort of leaned toward the aggressive end of the continuum are probably not the ones listening to this podcast. Except to that, I mean I have seen this as a therapist and as a coach, that sometimes people who have a really passive orientation can get to a certain point where they become aggressive.They kind of swing back and forth a little bit. 

For the benefit of somebody listening to this podcast, and trying to figure out where they are on that continuum. I mean, what have you heard your clients say that maybe come to you for help with boundaries? With who, or without maybe even realizing it, doing a lot of the things that keep them stuck on that passive end of the spectrum? I mean, like, what does that feel like? But also, what do you see them doing that is unintentionally creating that situation that… before they have the benefit of working with you, Kathleen, to get to get much better at this. But like, where is the starting point? 

Kathleen: Let me say that I can answer this question from a personal space. Right? Because the reason I’m so passionate about boundaries is because I don’t always—I don’t—I’d love to say that, “Yeah, this is what it’s like.” Every, all the wonderful compliments you gave me at the beginning of our talk. But I’m always working on boundaries. I don’t always set the best boundaries. And I’ve been a people pleaser, and can be a people pleaser. Right? So I… this is important to me. And I like to help people with it because I’d like to think I have some empathy around what it’s like. Right? So whether it’s from a personal place, or what clients have shared what, what family members have shared, friends, right? 

I think that being in that passive place where we’re not taking care of ourselves feels really exhausting, and it feels really anxious. Anxiety comes to mind a lot because we’re scrambling around trying to manage things that we don’t have control over, trying to prevent the outcomes that we’re so afraid of happening. So anxiety comes up a lot, and exhaustion and inadequacy. If I had to pick three big feeling words, those would be the three. Right? Because never enough, never good enough. Again, because we’re trying to do the impossible, quite frankly. Right? So I think that’s how people feel. 

To give you a short answer, there are a lot of emotions in that: guilt, shame, resentment, and anger as well. Because what we’re doing, what it looks like, is now saying yes when you really need to say no. Stretching yourself too thin and taking on too much. I think a lot of those things that we might think of off the top of our heads when we think about people pleasing. Also, it looks like reading every little nonverbal cue, and your significant other when you think they might be in a bad mood and thinking, “Oh, no, that’s not okay. I need to fix that.” Or keeping a long to-do list and beating yourself up at the end of the day because you didn’t manage to get enough things done. Aso help your neighbor, and your best friend, and run your parents’ errands for them. You’d do everything on your list to be that, be that exceptionally functioning person helps everybody right. 

Dr. Lisa: And showers.

Kathleen: And showers. Yeah, yeah. It also looks like I’m not speaking up too. Right? Not being so scared of having direct communication because you’re so afraid of conflict, or making, or someone else feeling uncomfortable or unhappy, possibly with you that we don’t speak up. We stay silent. We stuff our feelings and sweep things under the rug. Those are just a few examples that I think a lot of people can relate to. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. No, definitely. I can certainly relate to the part abou—I think the guilt is always what gets me. That, like, I could do it? If I rearranged some of my personal priorities, I could do this for you, and therefore I should. Yeah.

Kathleen: Oh, that’s a great example. 

Dr. Lisa: That’s my Achilles heel, for sure. Okay, so—oh, you’re about to say something? 

Kathleen: Oh, just just that’s such a great example. Just because we can do something doesn’t mean that we should. I think that even that idea that “I could,” even if it means, right, that I’m not taking care of myself, or I’m going to have these negative consequences as a result, but I could. I could do it so therefore, I should. I think, right, is one of those not necessarily accurate beliefs that a lot of us hold. Isn’t it also connected to the idea that if somebody else needs us, needs help, is unhappy with us, or even just experiencing any kind of negative or uncomfortable emotion? That sort of trumps up most other things. Isn’t that something that I think is sort of in the background, as a belief, or a feeling even? When we want to people please, when we feel guilty? 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. I’m hearing in what you just said. It occurred to me a couple of minutes ago, when you’re talking about the anxiety component of that passive orientation. There’s some kind of relationship here with codependence and having trouble setting boundaries. I think I’m hearing this. Is that true? 

Kathleen: Oh, sure. Yeah. I mean, codependency is another one of those terms that is misunderstood. Sometimes. That makes sense because it is a broad term that can refer to a lot of different things. Totally non-scientific, by the way. Codependence is nowhere in the DSM. It’s a self help term, I guess. But I find it helpful to simplify it and think of codependency as a lack of healthy, clear boundaries in your relationships. So definitely, right?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Kathleen: I think, for me, I literally define codependency as a boundary issue. 

Dr. Lisa: Well, it really is. It’s that, you know, “Where do I stop and you start?” That “What is my responsibility and what is your responsibility?” “Can I function independently, even if…” like going back to your point just a minute ago, “even if you’re upset, and not feeling good?” or, “Is that maybe not actually my problem to solve?” Yeah.

Kathleen: Right, absolutely. There are all these beliefs that we sort of take for granted that are at the root of codependency, of not having clear boundaries. That your feelings are mine to solve, that having uncomfortable feelings is just catastrophic. We’ve got to do something about it. That if I can do something, I should do something. None of those are actually necessarily always true. This is the part I’m just thinking out loud here. This is the part in our conversation where I have this feeling that people are wondering, “Yeah. But that sounds pretty cold”, or, “How do you be there and support somebody that you care about? Aren’t their feelings your responsibility if you care about them? Or shouldn’t you care about their feelings?” Those kinds of questions. 

I think it’s just a good time to say that you can care about someone—what they’re feeling, what they’re going through. If they’re struggling, you can even show up for them and support them without taking ownership, or responsibility for their feelings or situation, while having clear healthy boundaries. That those things are not exclusive. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. What an important message. That you can care very much about how somebody is feeling, and even help them in healthy ways, but without taking on their problems as your own. That’s huge.

Kathleen: Yeah. Look, I understand it’s easier to talk about that than it is to do, as so many things are. 

Dr. Lisa: Right. 

Kathleen: Having healthy boundaries and being assertive while still caring for people and supporting them requires a lot of self-awareness, and mindfulness, and a lot of emotional regulation. To be able to feel your feelings and feel empathy, or concern, or worry, or for this person that’s in your life from whomever they might be. Hold those feelings, carry them with you without them taking over, and sort of becoming the driver in the driver’s seat. Feeling those feelings, but still showing up in your behavior in your words with assertiveness and healthy boundaries. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well, as you brought up, Kathleen, very much easier to talk about this than it is to actually put it into practice. I mean, I know that the path of growth in this area is far beyond the scope of what can be learned through a podcast. Right? I mean, I know that you have worked as a therapist and as a coach, for, I mean, years sometimes with people who are really working to develop these skills. So I just want to say that to people listening, because sometimes I feel like I am all for self-help and kind of advice and sharing ideas. 

I think sometimes people feel like if they heard it, or like, “Oh, this is what Kathleen said. So I should be able to do this.” Like it was easy. I don’t want anybody to feel badly if they can’t just magically do these things that Kathleen is sharing. Okay, this is a growth process.

Kathleen, if you were to start with a client as either like a life coach, or a therapist who is really working specifically on boundaries, what would you imagine the arc of the work would look like with that person? Like what kinds of things would you guys be working on or talking about first? Then how would that evolve over time? Not that you have to talk through every moment of the growth process, everybody’s different. But like, what are some of the starting places that you’ve experienced with clients? 

Kathleen: Gosh. I think that one of the starting places is probably because if we struggle with assertiveness, we tend to beat ourselves up, quite a bit. Right? Compassion—self-compassion is in short supply. So one of the starting points is really understanding, “Why do I feel this way?”, “Why do I struggle with standing up for myself?”, “Why am I feeling resentful, jealous, bitter, angry, burnt out, guilty?”, “Why am I feeling that, and where did I learn these kinds of… just this way of showing up in my relationships?” Because it’s important, self-compassion is stepping back and looking at the whole context, considering the full picture. To see yourself as with compassion. Like, “I learned this stuff, this was passed on to me. I learned to think about relationships this way I learned, this is how I need to be for people to treat me well or to get my needs met. These are the sort of unspoken rules that were taught to me about being a nice person, or finding love.” Right? And so that’s usually where we start. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, there’s this whole exploration process of unpacking. Like, “how do I feel?” “Why do I feel this way?” “Where did these beliefs come from?” So there’s just, like a whole, like self-discovery is the word that’s coming to mind, in a very compassionate way. That “how do I make sense?”

Kathleen: Yeah, and self-validation too. Like these feelings make sense. It’s okay—not only is it okay and valid—and I’m still a good person and a nice person. But it makes sense too. That I’m angry or resentful. Those are the big feelings that come up a lot when we aren’t setting boundaries that we then have feelings about. Even so, it becomes this negative snowball. So a lot of validation. 

Also, a lot of—this is one of the other sort of starting areas because they kind of do overlap. Surprising—surprises, I guess I’ll just call it surprises. People are often surprised to learn new perspectives on this. Like the idea that we can be nice and assertive, or that we need to be assertive in order to be nice. Just even that process of shifting your paradigm, your perspective, and looking at boundaries, and assertiveness, and relationships in new and different ways. It can become sort of this eye opening experience. And I think—I don’t think—I have seen what a relief it can be. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, these new ideas can be so liberating. I’m thinking of a moment in my own life, where I felt like I’d been struck by lightning. It was this idea. I think, probably from my work and becoming a therapist, potentially. But I think also supported by like, the whole Montessori, and we Montessori families are very much around this idea. But the idea of like, that somebody else’s emotional experience, like a painful emotional experience, can actually be an incredibly positive thing. Because if they feel badly, then they become motivated to do their growth work, or healing, or learn, or change something. That if I am trying to like rescue, and fix, and make it better, and overstep, and whatever, that I’m actually depriving them of the opportunity to have that motivation and to have that kind of self-directed growth. Like if I take away their natural consequences. 

That idea totally changed my life. And I think, made it a lot easier for me to set boundaries, personally. Just going back to what you’re saying. And I hadn’t thought about that, until you just mentioned those surprises. And I’m sure that they’re very different for different people. But that was a huge one. For me this idea that pain is positive. Yeah. That changed a lot of things for me. So you’re saying in your work with clients, you help them kind of work through those old beliefs and find new ones that are liberating in similar ways? Maybe? 

Kathleen: Absolutely. And that is such a good one. Right?

Dr. Lisa: For me, yes. Yeah. 

Kathleen: Yeah, I think I’ve definitely had that in my own way. I had that moment too, where I came to that emotional understanding. Not just intellectual understanding of… those really difficult feelings are good. They can be good. They’re definitely necessary. That when we try to rescue people from them, we’re taking away, we’re violating some of their rights. Their right to feel bad. Go through that growth process. A good—what is this—a metaphor that I found at some point and love and use sometimes is that of the butterfly in the cocoon. I don’t know if you’ve heard this one but… 

Dr. Lisa: I don’t think so. Tell me.

Kathleen: Your cats have heard the story. They would like to tell us their thoughts on this, that is setting boundaries with them. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, how do you set boundaries with cats?

Kathleen: To be continued, right. But do you know, when a butterfly—when a caterpillar has changed into a butterfly and is ready to break free of its cocoon, it will struggle to sort of shed that cocoon, and break free, and fly away. If we were to stumble across that and say, “Oh, wow. That butterfly is struggling, it needs help. I’m going to rescue it. I’m going to help it because it feels good for me, and I’m going to do that.” We steal away from the butterfly, the opportunity to strengthen its wings through that natural process, that flow process, that challenging process. It won’t be ready to fly and it will possibly not make it. Right? It’s at risk, it’s vulnerable because it hasn’t gone through those literal growing pains. Right?

Dr. Lisa: You’re saying that that’s like actually how the butterflies muscles develop is through that exercise of liberating itself from the chrysalis. I did not know that. But what a perfect metaphor. That if you’re like, “Oh, I’ll save you.” Then the butterfly then like, “Thanks!” And crashes to the ground. Right? 

Kathleen: Like yeah, right. It feels good to help. It feels good for us to help people. It feels bad to see someone’s if you’re a good kind person and you have empathy. But acting on that is not always the right or nice thing to do for others or possibly for yourself too. Yeah, so that’s a good example. 

Dr. Lisa: This is such an important idea. I also—just knowing my listeners that are very practical folks—we are, and if we don’t talk about this, Kathleen, we’re going to get questions asking us. Can you please give us some examples of healthy boundaries in action? What does this look like? We should talk about this now to just go ahead and get out of the way. 

Kathleen: All right. Well, let’s start with this example that earlier that we’re talking about just now, which is maybe seeing someone that we care about struggle. How do we care and support with healthy boundaries? That looks like—I’m just full of metaphors today but let’s imagine that they’re swimming, and I’m gonna get practical and real here in just a second. So let’s imagine that they’re swimming in choppy waters and struggling. If we jump in there with them, right? We might both go down. 

In that case, how would you support them? You might throw them a lifesaver, or perhaps they’re, I don’t know, swimming in a triathlon. You might stand on the sidelines and cheer them on, see if they need anything that you can give them. With that, having healthy boundaries might sound like, “I’m so sorry that you’re going through this. I can see this is really difficult for you. I hate to see you in pain.” You know, empathy. “Is there anything I can do for you?”, “What can I do for you?” At that point, you may or may not be able to give that thing to them that they’re asking for. That depends, and we—the assertiveness continues on from there—we can talk about that. How to say no assertively, and so forth. But supporting someone looks like, supporting them from the sidelines. 

Dr. Lisa: Yes, and offering to help in the way that you can. But I’m also hearing like the next thing here. So that would be like one example of setting a boundary. But I think like what I hear a lot from my clients, and I’m sure you do too, ss this question around, “Well, I’ve set a boundary with someone and now they’re doing the thing anyway.” So like, going back to your example, you say, “Yeah, let me know how I can help you, friend.” 

The friend doesn’t maybe say this, but they do start calling you at 11 o’clock at night, sobbing hysterically, and wanting to tell you all about everything, and texting you like nine times a day, and being annoyed with you when you don’t respond right back. Or asking you to do things that are actually starting to interfere with your life and ability. You’re like, so I’m imagining Kathleen would say being appropriately assertive would be like, “You know? 11 is pretty late for me. I’m usually in bed at that time. I’m happy to talk with you when I’m free. Can I call you on the way home from work? Sometimes in the afternoon, I’m in the car anyway.” You have this nice conversation. And the next day, your phone rings at 11:30 at night. I thought, “What would Kathleen do?” Because that’s the thing that I hear a lot about my clients is like, “Well, I told my mother-in-law to not talk to me that way anymore”, or “I told so-and-so to not do this.” I think people sometimes feel that setting that boundary is like requesting something of someone else. Then when that somebody doesn’t do that something else then they’re like, “what do I do?” 

Kathleen: That they’re still stuck and feeling helpless. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. So like, what’s your take on that aspect of it? So like, “Please don’t call me at 11.” 

Kathleen: Well. First of all, that was a great example—the way that you verbalize that was beautiful. Right? But they keep calling anyway. You got to, when that happens… the beautiful thing about boundaries is that it is not really requesting something of somebody. It is letting them know what to expect from you. This is what I’m going to do and this is what I’m not going to do. 

Dr. Lisa: There it is. 

Kathleen: Right? So if they’re not respecting the initial boundary, and they continue to call you at 11:30. “I asked you not to call me that late because I’m usually in bed by then. I know that you’re going through a really difficult time, I’m not able to talk at that time. Here are the—here’s when I can support you, or I will call you during this time. If you keep calling me at 11:30, I’m gonna have to…” and then you can fill in the blank with a boundary that you feel you can follow through. 

I think that’s really important with setting boundaries is that whatever you choose, it’s something that you know, you can stick to. Whatever that is, wherever you are with that is okay. So maybe it’s, “I’m gonna have to turn my phone off at night.” Or it may be something a little bit, let’s say, more drastic. “I’m not going to be able to talk with you if you don’t respect this boundary.” It depends on the person and the situation. If you have somebody who’s really actually getting angry with you, and criticizing you because you didn’t text back right away, or you’re still not picking up the phone at 11:30, even when you asked them to call at that time. That’s a pretty difficult situation. 

I just want to validate that if you’re experiencing something like that, that’s a pretty toxic relationship. Those are harder to be assertive in. It’s giving you information. When someone doesn’t respect your boundaries, it’s giving you information about if that relationship is healthy for you. So I just want to context that.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. No. That’s good to say that. That’s actually a sign of an unhealthy relationship is like when you say, “Please don’t do this” or, “Please respect me in this area.” Somebody continues not just to do it, but gets upset with you for setting boundaries. Like, you should actually be paying attention to that is what I’m hearing, you say.

Kathleen: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s a red flag. To answer your question directly, we set boundaries. When they’re not respected, we need to up the ante and set a boundary that’s, if you want to call it a little further out, if you will. Let them know, not to be patronizing, but just as you would be disciplining a child, “If you don’t do this, here’s the next consequence.” So, “If you don’t stop calling me in the middle of the night, I’m gonna have to shut off my phone.” “If you don’t stop talking to me that way, I’m gonna have to take a break from our relationship for a while.” Let them know what it is going to be. If you’re having trouble upping the ante, so to speak, or finding a boundary that you feel you can follow through with, or struggling with a difficult person like this, that’s something to work with a coach or counselor. Because it’s pretty difficult at that level.

Dr. Lisa: It really is. I think also—many people experience these kinds of dynamics with their families. So it’s sort of people that you’re… it’s hard to like, and it can be done. I mean, some people limit relationships with certain family members, and it’s a positive thing. But it can be a sticky situation for many. So,but that’s good advice. 

Oh my gosh. We could talk about so many different aspects of this, Kathleen, but I want to reiterate what I’m hearing you say, which is setting boundaries is not about controlling anybody else. It is about deciding what you’re going to do, and what you’re okay with, and how you’re going to communicate that. You being responsible for your actions. That we can’t actually control others. 

Kathleen: Exactly. Right. Healthy boundaries, non-codependent boundaries are assertive boundaries, rather than passive or aggressive ones. Or about taking care of yourself and making sure everybody knows what that’s gonna look like. It’s not about bargaining with people, or getting certain reactions out of them, or even asking things of them. Even when we compromise, again, that is, “Well, here’s where I can meet you. Where can you meet me? Is there a place that overlaps?”

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. So much good stuff. Well, and I want to be respectful of your time. Do you have time to tackle a little listener question with me  for a couple of minutes?

Kathleen: Sure Okay. 

Dr. Lisa: So with all of these things in mind, we had someone get in touch. I’m not sure if it was through Instagram, it may have been. It may have been through the blog at growingself.com.

But this person writes, “My hope is to be able to have a healthy relationship where I’m not sabotaging things or letting my anxiety ruin it. But a big piece of this is me getting better, and my ability to maintain healthy boundaries, and also be comfortable asking people to meet my needs, while at the same time being able to meet theirs. 

What are a couple of things that I could do to get better around the boundary aspect of this?” Just as I read this question out loud to you, my immediate reaction is that this is not an answerable kind of question. This is, like, enter into this growth process that will probably take a while. Is that your reaction to this question? Or am I—maybe there is an easy answer. I don’t know.

Kathleen: Based on what this person is saying. I’m hearing that sabotaging relationships and anxiety. So I think I’m hearing—they’re saying that their anxiety around asking for what they need, setting boundaries, etcetera, there might be other stuff there, creates the sabotage. So this is a complicated, multi-layered.

That being said, though, maybe this is because I’ve been reading Brené Brown. Maybe it’s because it’s a quote that I saw earlier today. I wish I could pull it up real quick. But what’s coming to my mind is that when we set boundaries assertively, which is so nice, and kind, and compassionate, and all of that good stuff. We are being authentic. Right? That means that we’re opening up the opportunity to have intimacy and closeness with that person. That can be scary, and it can feel risky. Sometimes, when we avoid that, we end up sabotaging those relationships anyway. But sometimes we need to sort of dip our toe in that vulnerability pool and see how the person reacts. I’m not talking about “Let’s move my boundaries based on how they react”, but rather, “Let’s see, is this person safe?” 

If they do respond with love, and compassion, respect, empathy, validation, and respect my boundaries, then maybe next time, I can lean into my anxiety a little bit more and express a little bit of me that makes me little bit more scared, and see what happens. Like learning to feel less anxious. If your partner’s a healthy partner for you and a safe partner, we can ease into the practice of setting boundaries and expressing our needs in relationships. 

Dr. Lisa: That is amazing. Yeah. You’re saying to do reality testing. “What happens when I do ask for something?” Then there’s almost like this exposure therapy component. Like, every time I ask—and it’s positive—I’m kind of on, like, a healing those old ideas about who I need to be, and what boundaries mean, because it is actually okay. It’s like that healing in the context of the healthy relationship. 

Kathleen: Exactly. Reality testing. Exactly. Especially if you’ve been with this person for a while already. You know them well, what… are they someone who can hold space for your needs and respect your boundaries? Still—what’s the word I’m looking for—still have a strong sense of self and a hearty self-esteem in order to just stand by your side. That, if the evidence is there for that, then it’s appropriate to slowly lean into that anxiety. Well, but yeah, that’s the process. 

Dr. Lisa: Definitely. And if they can’t, or they fall apart, or they get mad at you, or try to punish you, I will refer you back to the recent episode of the podcast in which I discussed narcissism. And there’s also one about when to call it quits in a relationship. Just saying it. It might not be the case.

Kathleen: But that’s a really good point. Right? All of those things are not okay. 

Dr. Lisa: Not okay. 

Kathleen: Right? We can—we feel like we don’t say that enough, right? Hearing things, like well, defensiveness. Even just defensiveness, right? We all feel defensive sometimes. I think that’s a natural human emotion. But again, can your partner feel defensive and still be self-aware enough, and regulate to show up with love and respect?  “Oh, wow. I’m feeling defensive and I want to be here for you. So let me take a moment and come back.” Or “I notice I’m feeling defensive, and your feelings are valid, and really important to me.” Or something like that, right? But acting defensive with minimization, invalidation, blame shifting, that’s not okay. 

Dr. Lisa: Not okay. Yeah. 

Kathleen: You don’t have to live with it.

Dr. Lisa: What a powerful message and what a nice note for us to land on. It’s beautifully, just affirming, and empowering conversation about boundaries, and what they are, and the path to growth around them. But that also that’s a big takeaway for me. That if you encounter these kinds of reactions in someone when you’re trying to set healthy and appropriate boundaries, it’s not you. It’s that. Then to not get tricked into believing otherwise. That’s an important message for a lot of people to hear, I think, especially for women.

Kathleen: Yeah, yeah. That’s a great point. It’s not a reflection of you or the appropriateness of your boundary.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well, we could talk for a much longer. So this is such an interesting conversation. And maybe we can revisit this topic and have a part two at some point. But I’ve really enjoyed your time today. It has been wonderful. 

Kathleen: Well, thank you. I really appreciate being able to be here and talk about this. And it has been, I think, fun. This is my idea of a good time anyway.

Dr. Lisa: We’re letting our nerd flags fly, Kathleen. I love it. I had a good time too. Thank you.