Reparenting Yourself: How to Be the Loving Parent You Never Had

Lisa Marie Bobby:

  Maybe you didn’t get all the love, support, or even emotional security that you needed growing up, and now you’re feeling the effects of that in your relationships and your self esteem or your ability to feel like the kind of person you want to be.

and create the kind of life you want to have. If this resonates, I want you to know you’re not alone, but also you are not stuck here today on love, happiness, and success. We are joined by Dr. Daniel Siegel, who will show us how to rewire our brains for emotional healing, how to break free from the past patterns.

And also how to build stable and fulfilling relationships like we all deserve. And if you are a parent, this conversation can also help you ensure that your kids are going to get everything they need from you in order to break that chain and build a bright future for them. So welcome Dr. Segal. Dr. Bovee, thank you for having me. Pleasure to be here. I am so excited to have you on the show. I have to tell you, my listeners I’m a little bit starstruck right now. So in graduate school and beyond, your work, your books are just part of the fabric of what therapists learn and what we do.

And so it’s such an honor to have you join me today. And so for my listeners, before we dive into all of this, I do actually need to spend a few moments, just explaining to you like who Dr. Siegel is and what he does. Dr. Segal is one of the most influential figures, honestly, in the fields of brain science, psychology, and emotional well being. He worked for years as a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School of Medicine.

Founded the Mindsight Institute. Where his groundbreaking work in interpersonal neurobiology has really revolutionized the way we understand the mind, relationships, and human development. And he is the author of numerous best selling books, including The Whole Brain Child, Brainstorm, Mindsight, No Drama, Discipline, The Developing Mind, aware.

Just to name a few, I have like numerous of them on my shelf behind me here. And these works have really become essential reading for parents, educators, therapists, and also really anyone interested in understanding how the brain works and how we can cultivate greater emotional intelligence, resilience, and well being.

Thank you, Dr. Siegel. Thank you, Dr. Bobbie. All right. So let’s just dive into this. At the core of your work, you have done so much to emphasize this crucial role of childhood development. So a lot of your books are all about helping parents understand what is happening in their child’s brain at different points in their development.

And so just to begin, why did you choose to focus so much of your work on that childhood brain development, things like whole brain child, a brainstorm. And why is this understanding so vital? As parents, we’re actually the first teachers of our children. And I think, for me when I was, a kid, I always wondered how people developed into who they became. We have two fundamental things. One is what happens outside of your body. So you experience it. interacting with your parents and your peers.

And the other is what happens inside your body. So what’s the nature of how the brain develops, for example, how does it relate to the rest of your physiology?

How do our experiences? And that’s shaped that brain, not only in childhood, through adolescence and even throughout our entire lives.

So then as a therapist, it became important to ask, who is this person where I’m working with that have the privilege to try to help? What is fundamentally what’s in their innate inborn? structure, that maybe we won’t be able to change that much. But what has been learned on top of that, that then has shaped how they’ve adapted and that we could probably change in a big way.

I wanted to bring those two things I learned about brain science into very practical application first with my experience of being a therapist, but then I also became at the same time a parent myself. So I had our young son who’s now 35, was born and I was like, how are these things? You know that have affected me in my own childhood.

How are they impacting how I’m parenting him? So at that same time I was learning Attachment research where that field of studying parent child relationships called attachment We were able to show that how you make sense of your life is actually the best predictor of how your child will turn out.

I had a lot of sense making to do in my own life. That then, because I was, trained in brain science, I wanted to understand, how does that making sense process depend on brain structure and function. So ultimately I wrote a whole book devoted to answering that question. . So that’s a long answer to a short question, but the reason the brain is important is because when you know about it, you’re actually prepared to do something very positive with how it changes.

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for taking us into that. Your work in all of these different books, you’ve done so much, but, you’re exploring some very profound themes around different kinds of experiences that we can have in childhood and how they impact us and talking about how our relational environments impact us.

The support that children need for their brains to really develop in optimal ways. My main takeaway from your books, and I say this as both a clinician, but also as a parent and a human is that when people receive this kind of support, particularly earlier in their lives, it becomes much easier.

For them to grow into self aware adults who can regulate their emotions and empathize with other people, form healthy relationships. And so could you talk about some of the key ingredients that go into fostering this type of intentional parenting? In a perfect world, what kinds of experiences are kids having that allow them to develop in these optimal ways?

When you take a step back and ask across every culture that people who’ve been asking this question, what you find is there’s a common ground. To parenting across cultures, where the Children end up doing well, meaning they’re resilient.

They have emotionally rewarding relationships. They meet their intellectual potential. These are not guaranteed outcomes, but it’s almost support for their growth that optimizes how they’re gonna grow into adolescence and then into Children. So the way to talk about the basic finding is something called contingent communication. Contingent simply means, if I’m responding to you, I do three things. I listen to what you are saying to me, so I take it in. I’m bringing in and perceiving what you’ve sent to me as a signal.

Then inside of me, I make sense of that signal. I take whatever time it takes to really say, what is Dr. Bobby really saying to me? And then the third thing I do is I respond in a timely way. and effective manner that corresponds to what you sent as your initial signal. For example, if you say, Hey, Dan, and feel free to call me Dan, do you want to go get some gluten free pizza?

And I said, wow, that’s a really interesting idea. Oh, I’m reading this really interesting book about zebras. So how would that make you feel? Yeah. Just going in a totally different direction. You didn’t hear what I said or chose to prioritize whatever you were thinking about at the moment.

Exactly. Make me feel bad. Yeah, you felt bad and I made you invisible. Like it didn’t matter what you said. So that would be called non contingent communication. Contingent communication would be you ask, yeah, let’s get some gluten free pizza. I go, Oh my God, that’s so great. I’m gluten free also.

So that would be called contingent communication.

I perceive what you say, I make sense of it. I respond to it in a timely, effective manner. So at a very minimum, what we can say across cultures is when kids thrive, they’ve had contingent communication. Yeah. Somebody just staying connected to them in the moment and reflecting back, like I heard what you said, I hear what you say, acknowledgement.

And when that acknowledgement and connection doesn’t happen, it’s also fair to say that repair of the rupture is reliably brought in a relatively rapid fashion. In other words, no one’s perfect. There’s no such thing as perfect parenting. But there is basically showing up and being present. for parenting.

And that’s the exciting features that we don’t have to aim for perfection when we’re trying to say, what are the key ingredients of parenting? The downside of that is people say, Oh my God, I didn’t do it exactly like that. And then you really start beating up on yourself, which, of course, distracts you from being involved in contingent communication because you’re busy being hard on yourself.

So all of these things turn into a loop, and the freedom from the negative side of that loop is repair. You can always begin again. Yeah. Okay. When we can bring the science to let parents know that, it’s incredibly empowering for all of us as parents because no one does it right.

So we all have hot buttons, that can get pressed. And the idea is how do you make a repair and how do you learn about your hot button? It happens less frequently.

You learn from it when, you flip your lid is the way I call it. Listen, here’s the beautiful thing about it. When you teach your kids that you are really a human being, they learn how to treat themselves with inner kindness also. And then you’ve role modeled for them that they’re not trying to aim for perfection.

They’re trying to aim for presence. And that’s a great way to live. And it’s a great lesson to give your kids. It’s a gift that keeps on giving. Yeah. And so at the heart of all of this, you’re saying that what is ideal for the development of kids and certainly you go into other pieces of this, flexibility and ways to help kids, integrate their brains.

But with that basic attachment, feeling cared for, feeling connected to another human through these small exchanges. And also, can I just say, I love the way that you’re normalizing the fact that you don’t have to be perfectly perfect in order to help your kids develop and get what they need And I think that’s a good message for all of us and all of our relationships is that if we do lose it, to focus on that repair is incredibly important.

And so when kids get this, for the most part, as they’re growing up, how does this impact the kinds of people that they grow into in terms of the way that their brains are functioning in an ideal world? Here’s the strange. Simple statement, but Dr. Bobby, when you have that contingent communication, what you’re really having is something called integrated communication, which means there’s an honoring of differences.

And a promoting of linkages. Healthy relationships that are filled with contingency are where two people are differentiating from each other, but they’re linking in their communication, but the contingency allows this to expand so they become more like a we.

Rather than just two people separated as a sending a signal to B and then B does whatever B wants and it’s not contingent. So once you see that as integrated communication, you have the opportunity to dive into the brain question and say when a child has pretty reliable integrated communication, and when there’s ruptures, it gets repaired, which is a repair of the rupture of integration, really, then what happens?

is the brain becomes integrated. So integrated communication between a parent or other caregiver and a child leads to the growth in the child’s brain of integrative structure and function. Now, it turns out that when the brain is integrated, different networks that differentiated well.

And then they have linkages to their differentiated units. And what’s exciting about that is another set of studies shows that when you have an integrated, brain, you have the best signs of well being that exist. Happiness, a sense of taking care of your body, Relational, connections that are rewarding, resilience, emotional resilience.

So an integrated brain is a happy, healthy life. Okay, this is so helpful. Just I think helping our listeners understand what needs to happen in those early childhood experiences to foster this integrated brain development that you’re talking about that is so foundationally important to all of these different domains of life.

And I know that there are a lot of people listening to this. Perhaps the majority who are thinking I don’t know that I always did get that from my parents and that maybe they are experiencing some of those consequences in their lives now. And I know as a therapist I have frequently worked with people who have not gotten their needs met, right?

And I’m now sitting there as adults thinking, is there hope for me? And so what I’d really like to talk with you about next are some of your thoughts around how we can heal from the past. What happens when you don’t get your needs met in childhood and what are the things that you can do about that as an adult to begin to help your brain repair, to integrate.

Even though that wasn’t something that you got in your early life experience. A couple of things. One, just to say that the research is really clear that, as parents, the best thing we can do for our kids is try to make sense of how our past impacted us, our past, meaning how the experiences we had when we were kids, shaped us.

And when I first heard about that in 1985, it just blew my mind wide open because this was from a researcher named Mary Main who was able to demonstrate that it wasn’t what happened to you that mattered so much as how you made sense of what happened to you. So as a therapist, oh my gosh, it was so good to hear because.

As a therapist, I felt that making sense process is exactly what we are trying to do in therapy. As a young therapist, I thought this research finding was just the most amazing research study I’d ever heard about. So I went and I basically decided to study with Mary Main, the person who was the lead investigator on that set of studies.

Ultimately the adult attachment interview, which shows you how you can earn secure attachment, even if you didn’t have it as a child. If you want to put an L in front of the word earn, you get the word learn, which is pretty much what they mean by earn it, learn it, you’re learning, how do you learn it?

You can say that there are basically three fundamental groupings of how our attachment may have been suboptimal for us. And those suboptimal things include. Avoidance is where there’s an emotional disconnect between the parent or other caregiver and the child. . And the child develops a kind of disconnection from their own internal world.

So for that person growing into an adult. They have generally what’s considered a kind of dismissing stance toward relationships and my own clinical experience over these 35 years or so, I guess it’s almost 40 years has been to see people with this history as being very distant from their own emotional worlds and even from their bodies and then teaching them how to not only have this differentiated more, so they’re aware of what their body’s feeling, they’re aware of what their heart is sensing, their gut is sensing, then to be able to use that in their contingent communication with others, totally changes how they experience the inner world and how they experience the relational world.

So their journey of growth is one particular way, that’s about 20 percent of the Population in the U. S. For example, has this one out of five. I didn’t realize it was that high. Yeah. And then another, 15 or 20 percent has something called preoccupied as an adult, which often is associated with what’s called ambivalent attachment as a kid.

So here our experience tends to be Yeah. We’re intruded upon by our caregivers and they’re inconsistent in their availability. So instead of a disconnected sense of self, you have a confused sense of self, especially in regard to relationships. So there’s a preoccupation with relational issues.

So in some ways, the work there, the growth edge work for people of that stance is quite different from the avoid. It’s here with the ambivalence. It’s, I think it’s okay. It’s not okay. It’s okay. It’s not okay. So you want to teach this kind of ability for self soothing for inner soothing of the emotional world and from a self from a relational point of view, learn how to see relationships as important, but not essential for your very survival, which is the desperate.

And then, the third non secure broad category is called disorganized attachment. And this is actually quite different from the organized forms of certainly secure, but organized, avoidant, organized, ambivalent. This one disorganized is where there’s terrifying experiences with a caregiver.

Yeah. That leads It’s not to a disconnection, not to a confusion, but to a fragmentation of the mind. And I for reasons I don’t really understand, but I ended up being a specialist in working with people who had disorganized attachment. And then as a clinician was, working a lot with people with the outcome of that is called dissociation.

So the mind starts partitioning into different parts that. Remain somewhat disconnected from each other in terms of memory, in terms of feelings, in terms of, capacities, and these fragmented. Aspects of experience, can be worked with very effectively in therapy. Yeah, definitely.

Okay. Thank you though, just for explaining that. I know that in your books and your work, you go into much more detailed ways and almost the, how to get all of the different points. Parts of the machinery of the brain to come online and a kid in order to strengthen it. But I love in these broad strokes that really, if people aren’t getting their needs met with their parents, it does result into differences, primarily in how we perceive ourselves and others that come out in relationships in terms of these attachment styles.

And, I really appreciate your thoughts about how we can develop these healthier patterns in relationships as adults with people who have more avoidant tendencies, to practice really being more present and also doing the things that create connection that even if they’re not maybe feeling it all in the same way, they can still do the things.

that support that. And with people who have a more insecure, anxious attachment style, there’s a lot of opportunity when it comes to self soothing and creating a little bit of emotional distance between themselves and others, to avoid that fusion. Are there any other things? Just so you know, people who are listening to this podcast, I think a primary goal of many of them is really relational.

Any other things that you would suggest that people could do in service of their relationships, or even things to be aware of that may be, echoes from the past related to their own developmental needs, not getting that they should be thinking about. There’s a model of how temperament, that we’re born with leads to the personality that tends to dominate in our lives.

I’ve been working on this for 20 years with some colleagues, but this model proposes basically that if you’ve had experiences that were not ideal attachment relationships in the past, it will intensify how your temperament, is moving forward into a kind of very, rigid aspect of your personality.

Now, are we talking about, when you speak of temperament, is this like dandelion versus orchid kind of temperament in broad strokes, or are you going into more like personality types? What are, yeah, so certainly dandelion and, ways of thinking about people being fragile or resilience is, the way I think about it.

That’d be. something that might be related to temperament. And those would be, if they are temperament, they’re on top of a number of other issues, which would be related to something called sensitivity, how much of a stimulus do you need to initiate a reaction?

Intensity, how intensely do you respond? Tone, how do you, respond, what’s the actual emotional experience you’re having at that moment? Yes. A fourth thing is novelty. How do you response to not to new things? And there are other things like rhythmicity and stuff like that. The idea of temperament is, that your inner.

Propensities of your nervous system are not learned. They’re inborn. Now that doesn’t mean they’re genetic necessarily, but it means that you have an innate constitution that I think is rooted in the subcortical networks of the brain, that is the cortex. If you do your brain like a hand model, the fingers on top of your thumb folded into a fist would be the cortex, and then beneath the cortex would be your thumb and your palm, and those areas are the sub, meaning below, cortical areas.

So those are pretty well formed at birth, so they’re a pretty reasonable place to consider where temperament comes from. So what my colleagues and I did is we took about 50, 000 narratives that, One of us had accumulated over about 30 years in a system called the Enneagram of personality, and we took these Enneagram narratives and we analyzed them through the lens of this field.

I work in interpersonal neurobiology, and tried to find developmental neuroscience that might explain the narratives. So our proposal, and it’ll be out in a book called Personality and Wholeness in Therapy, is that if your attachment experiences were not secure, there are nine basic ways where that insecurity would be expressed, in a more intense way than if you had another kind of temperament.

To answer your question, Dr. Bobby, about, This issue of what else can people do? What I find is really helpful is to say, okay, sure, I’ve had insecure attachment. I call it non secure because it’s not that the person is insecure. It’s that their experiences were not ideal. That is, they were not secure.

So the researchers call it insecure, but people misinterpret that as, oh, this human being is an insecure person. That’s not what it means. It means they did the best they could given the circumstances and anything. But insecure, they’re not. So that’s why I made up this term non secure. So with non security, what happens is your temperament becomes more intense in how it shapes, basically, the direction of what matters to you.

And we can talk about that. And when you know it through that lens of this nine, nine patterns, you really can understand the very specific growth edge that you would need. Even if you’ve had insecurity.

This is so interesting. And I have to tell you, I have, so the training is a psychologist and, formal personality and functional assessments and all of that. And I have found so much value in using aspects of of the Enneagram personality test, both myself and my clients, and one of my favorite things is that there are these levels of functioning built into that.

And it’s so interesting that you’re talking about the relationship between these early childhood experiences and attachment styles and then how those fundamental personalities are expressed. And Very interesting. And just for our listeners, Dan and I, Dan, I’ve decided that I want to be friends with you.

So I’m going to call you Dan and you’re going to call me Lisa. And yes, we, so we’re also going to be recording an episode of love, happiness and success for therapists. that dives into his recent work and how to apply these ideas for clinicians in therapy or counseling practice. And so if you are in therapy and want to get involved in this, I think that you should forward this, to your therapists and encourage them to subscribe to love, happiness, and success for therapists to hear Dan Siegel talk more about his work in this area.

So then my next question for you. You, in all of your books, all of your work, you, what I love about them is how practical they are. You go into the concrete things that parents can do to support the development of their children.

And every parent. Within the sound of my voice right now should immediately go to Amazon. Just look up Dr. Daniel Siegel and look every single one of his books, put them in your cart and buy them, read them, and then put those ideas into practice immediately because it will improve your life, your kid’s life, your relationship, and no brainer.

But Dan, what I really want to hear about are some of the ways that you, It might advise an adult who wants to change the way that they are wired, and now they’re in their 20s or 30s, their 40s, and so things like mind sight, your wheel of awareness idea, left brain, right brain, upstairs, downstairs.

Could you just go into some of those techniques and the iteration that could be useful for an adult who’s like, Yeah, I want that. A couple things. One, thank you for those, such positive, supportive comments. I was teaching in London the other day and going over some of these ideas and I was living in a house with two of my friends and colleagues.

One is an expert in trauma, Vessel Vandercook. And, so Vessel. You were hanging out with Vessel Vandercook. Oh yeah, we were living together for a while. So that’s what was in the audience. And he says to me afterwards, yeah, he goes, people need to realize that trauma can get filtered in the nine ways your PDP model, scribes.

And so even for Bessel van der Kolk, to say how does trauma impact a person? Too broad a comment to, to address. Instead, you could say what are, what is your pattern of development along these nine different paths? ways, and ways, and we can talk about that, a little bit.

And then also in the living with us in London was another friend of mine, who’s also, in the spotlight these days in the psychotherapy world, Dick Schwartz, who created the internal family systems model. And so Dick was sitting there too. And Dick comes to me afterwards and says, Dan, The internal family systems use basically where you have parts of you some are exiled away because they were so hurt in childhood Some are protective in the sense of either managing you or in emergencies acting like firefighters And how these parts all relate to each other and relate to a capital S self determines everything, and so Dick said you could really understand those nine different patterns as the ways different either exiles can be holding to their painful experiences in the past, or even some of the protective parts are finding a strategy for being protective, which is so true.

So Dick and Bessel and and our panelists. Friends and colleagues and spouses were all together at this dinner having this big conversation about this. So Lisa to address your question, I know there’s a lot of details. And I know people want just simple fixes, but I would just say that the overarching statement is, And here’s my view that I try to describe in this book on personality that I was the lead author on, our whole journey through life is a journey toward wholeness and relationships that were not secure, didn’t give us anything toward wholeness.

I can outline. Three fundamental needs that each of us seem to have, in our basically toolbox of what are the essential ways of getting back to wholeness and that some may be a little more sensitive than others. And so they become dominant in our lives. For some of us, maybe all three are super important, but for many, one is more important than the other two.

So I labeled them so people can remember them, but they have to do with agency. That’s the a bonding. That’s the B and certainty. That’s the C. And when you look at these fundamental needs, when you meet those needs, you get a feeling of wholeness is the bottom line. So here’s what I think happens when someone’s experiencing a lot of chaos and rigidity in their life, which are the two fundamental ways we’re not in this integrated flow is when you’re chaotic, things are random, overwhelming, flooding you, or rigid, things are unchanging and totally predictable.

So when you’re flowing in the middle, there’s a sense of vitality, of flexibility, of harmony. And if you are listening to Lisa and to me and you say, my life is full of rigidity. I’m shut down. Nothing as matters. I have no sense of meaning or purpose. That’d be rigidity. Or if you feel like things are flooding you, they’re overwhelming, you feel, burnt out, it’s just chaotic.

This would be the chaotic side of things. Then that would mean that your flow is not integrative. Depending on your temperament, you may think, And feel and behave as if agency were the main thing that needs to be addressed. Now, agency is where you have this drive for, embodied empowerment.

It’s I’m going to get my essential needs met. I’m going to have this sense of competence. I’m going to have agency means you’re a center that can initiate action and be effective in what you do. That’s agency. And depending on how it’s. That’s distributed. And we can talk about that later. There are different ways you might experience when non secure attachment is there in very different ways you would do your growth.

So you can’t just say, oh, if agency is your thing, what to do, but just keep in mind that for those where agency is the dominant. I call it a vector, which is something that sets a direction. If agency is your kind of thing, then the main emotion, if that’s frustrated, let me ask you, Lisa, what do you think it would be if your thing was agency and your drive to have agency achieved was, Not met and it was not successful.

What would you feel that would be so hard for me? Because when it comes to enneagrams, I am that like achievement oriented type. I could see myself getting very discouraged depressed Detached like not going into that. I don’t care place anymore. Yeah Personally, okay. And you might get irritated or frustrated.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And for someone where this was their big vector, anger would be the big thing. And if it got really intense, it could be, rage. Oh, so there’s a range of things. And when we look at the sub cortical networks for that kind of agency, Yeah. Then the main emotion, whether you’re trying to avoid it or you experience it fully, is anger.

So for some people then to try to work with that Is to really embrace that we’re all on a journey toward wholeness And sometimes their own anger can actually get in the way of them having rewarding relationships with other people. So their sense of agency from a relational point of view is going to be really hard.

So their growth edge would be one way for those in the bonding group. This is where, our view is that you used to be in the womb and you felt that had this experience of just an ease of being, it was effortless. You didn’t have to do anything. Now you’re out of the womb and now, you’re disconnected.

So there’s a sense of separation and loss. But now you have to work for a living. If you don’t have a connection to someone else, you’re gonna die. Just if you didn’t have the agency, you would die. It’s a do or die situation. So we think that activates one of these three networks, or maybe all of them.

and some people. So the bonding one is I need connection. So if connection is your drive and it doesn’t happen, you’re going to feel separation, distress and sadness, and it’s going to manifest itself in three very different ways, even with each of these ABCs. So it gets a little complicated when you start talking about it.

Saying what should I do? You want to know where a person is generally Has at as a baseline and then work at a growth edge with them at that baseline. But here, the main thing is about relational connection. Now, neither of those is my baseline. My baseline is the third one. C for certainty.

And so when you’re not in the womb anymore, you’re out in the world and you need to, try to make it, you want to have predictability. That’s what the brain is built to have, to be able to predict things. But with prediction, there’s protection, there’s safety. So ultimately this one is about anxiety and fears, the emotion when it’s not met.

And there are different ways it expresses itself. But the bottom line is, you can look at each of the three patterns depending on where your attention tends to go, whether it’s inside of you or outside of you. It’s a long story. And here we don’t have time to go into the details. It took six years to write this as a book.

So believe me, the details do matter. But, the broad statement is, If you find yourself with repeating patterns of how your emotions are being handled, how your thoughts and what matters to you is, feels like it’s very rigid, more like a prison, and your behaviors are making you act towards this kind of chaotic way or rigid way, this imprisoning in a kind of battleground, maybe be because your particular temperament has locked you into a certain way of being and the great news about that.

is that it is possible to turn that prison and transform it into a playground of connection and possibility. So there are nine different ways you can do that. And unfortunately, nine is a bigger thing than just one. So not just one take home message, but it’s all about, moving back to a sense of wholeness.

Yeah, and trying to develop enough self awareness. So we have, in the Mindsight book, you’ll see, and it’s not the same nine, but it’s nine different domains of integration. And you mentioned the wheel of awareness, a starting place for everyone. is to learn a basic practice. I call it a three pillar practice.

Meaning you’re learning to focus attention. That’s pillar one open awareness. That’s pillar two and build kind intention. That’s pillar three. And when you do those three things on a regular basis, I do it every morning in this wheel of awareness practice. Then there are incredible changes that take place.

also lead to integration in the brain, but also allow your awareness of these patterns that are your personality to become much more able to hold in this space of consciousness. And then you can do something about it. So then there are these eight other domains of integration we won’t get into here.

But, This is where, knowing the details is really helpful. It really basically allows you to be prepared for all the chance things that can come up in life. Yeah, and so big takeaway. This is the real deal. These ideas are complex. And you have also the good news written extensively about many of these ideas.

Your work is publicly available for somebody to do a deep dive into them, really to be checking out your books and other things that you have available. And another one of my takeaways, though, is that if people are really serious about doing this work, it’s going to be important for them to connect with a highly trained therapist who is familiar with these ideas, these systems that you’re talking about.

And so again, if you are in therapy, and if this is interesting, please direct your therapist to my other podcast, Love, Happiness and Success for Therapists, and also to be exploring some of Dr. Segal’s work. And you’ll be able, they’ll be able to learn about this here. But Dan, for our listeners here who are interested, you’ve peeked there about, thoughts and ideas that are like, I want more, what is the best way for them to find out more about you to access your work, your book, and any other resources that you have available for them?

Sure. You can go to my website, which is Dr. Dan, excuse me. You can go to my website, dr. D A N S I E G E L dot com. There you’ll see a bunch of resources that are available to you, list of the books, also a link to the Mindsight Institute, which is the, institute that, has these extensive courses.

For therapists and for others, that you can take and we, where you’ll get a deep dive into much of this material. Excellent. That’s so wonderful again, dr. Dan Siegel. This has been such an honor Thank you so much for spending this time with me today and our community here at love happiness and success.

I really appreciate it Thank you. Dr. Bobby an absolute pleasure Thank you.