Emotional Disconnection: How to Balance Your Career and Relationship

Silas Hendrich: Why would I set a boundary with work when work actually feels good to me? Why would I protect time with my family when that doesn’t always feel good?

Lisa Marie Bobby: Being an ambitious person with a big career is a beautiful thing. You’re out there killing it. And that’s all good. Until your professional goals start to take a toll on your personal life, your health, sometimes your mental health, and sometimes your relationship is the canary in the coal mine.

Silas Hendrich: I mean, trapped is a really good word because they get really good at their jobs professionally and they begin to feel less and less confident and capable and able in their personal lives. And so then they double down on their professional work because that’s what feels best for them. And it creates this loop that no one can kind of get out of.

Lisa Marie Bobby: On this episode of Love, Happiness and Success, we’re sitting down with a therapist and relationship expert to talk about how to find some balance and create wins in every area of your life. And also have a career that knocks it out of the park. If this is your first time listening, I’m so glad you’re here. I am Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby. This is Love, Happiness and Success. And we’re here every week to talk about you, your goals, your growth, your life satisfaction, your love and yes, your career. And so thanks for tuning in and also thank you for liking and subscribing and sharing these episodes with friends and family who you think could also benefit from hearing about the things you’re learning about every week. And with me today is my friend and colleague, Silas Hendrich, who is a licensed marriage and family therapist like me, who also deploys all kinds of coaching competencies to move from insight into action and into outcomes. And Silas, welcome.

Silas Hendrich: Hi, Lisa. Thanks for having me. It’s exciting to talk about this topic.

Lisa Marie Bobby: It is. Well, and I’m just excited to get a chance to visit with you because you are so much fun. You are one of my favorite people. And so I love having this time together, but also to get your insight into this specific situation, because I know you work with so many people who are navigating big careers, relationships, you see the mayhem that it could cause. And also, you know, you have some of this going on personally. It’s a personal experience as well, which I think gives your work so much depth. And we can even start there.

Silas Hendrich: Sure. I’d love to talk about that. Yeah, it is. It is something that I do with not only professionally, but on a personal level. My fiance now is a emergency medicine doctor who is currently in her fourth year of residency. And we’ve been together from medical school through all the matchday shenanigans that happens with doctors to her matching residency and starting residency and on a journey now with her through residency kind of on the side and trying to be a helpful and supportive partner to someone whose career is all-encompassing and has been all-encompassing for the entire time that we’ve been together. And we’re sort of on the edge of the promised land, which is when they become, when they graduate residency and they get a full-time job that pays them appropriately and they get a little bit more time and can set different boundaries with work. But it’s been a journey.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Absolutely. Well, I have to tell you, like you tell me stories about your partner sometime. I’ve never had the privilege of meeting her yet, but I have such a girl crush on her. She sounds like she’s just a monster with what she’s doing and, you know, the things that she’s taught, but also like how intense it is and that you are like, I know it’s so supportive and helpful and like trying to be there for her. But I think that’s probably some of that going on in my relationship. I’m much more careerist than my husband is, right? And like, what does that do to the space in between you when one person is spending, you know, 90% of their time and energy, like trying to make things happen in their career and the other person is like, “Can we go out to lunch sometime? I haven’t talked to you in like three weeks.” And you work with that a lot with your clients too. I mean, what are some of the things that you see from people coming in the door who are like, “We need to talk to somebody,” who maybe have been doing that for a while, and the toll that it starts to take?

Silas Hendrich: Yeah, there’s a number of like huge commonalities and I see it in like entrepreneurs, kind of like you, Lisa, who have started new businesses, lawyers, doctors, higher-end business professionals, right? Those kinds of careers that just inherently demand a lot from the individuals taking part in them and those careers. But also, there’s like a golden handcuffs kind of situation with the money aspect of it, I think is this sort of, you know, elephant in the room for a lot of couples and a lot of relationships when they’re struggling with how do we balance quality time together versus family, kids, and the fact that these jobs, it’s really difficult to set boundaries with something that is providing so much in terms of financial support that enables lifestyles that wouldn’t be possible without it. And couples get caught in this, “We don’t really know how to talk about it” kind of situation because it doesn’t feel like we can change anything, we feel powerless and we sort of just feel trapped. And it’s almost like, you know, they get, “Do I just have to accept this is the way that it is?” And there’s just a number of like nefarious like systemic situational things that can happen too, right? Commonly with a person who’s in the career, they spend so much time, I mean, spending 90% of the time sometimes greater than that doing that thing. And that’s where they’re getting a lot of like positive feedback and support for that. And that’s the thing that they’re getting really good at, right? If we think about, you know, like, Malcolm Gladwell’s, like, 10,000 hours, they’re putting 10,000 hours in their career. They’re not putting 10,000 hours in their relationships or their parenting or their familial relationships. And it becomes this trapped is a really good word because they get really good at their jobs professionally, and they begin to feel less and less confident and capable and able in their personal lives. And so then they double down on their professional work because that’s what feels best for them. And it creates this loop that no one can kind of get out of.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Oh, so interesting. So you’re saying that like a competence, positive feedback, doing a good job, the gold stars, the money is happening at work, which feels good, I’m going to do more of that. And at the less and less time that they spend in those other roles, they aren’t as effective as parents or partners. And then there’s like negative feedback and bad things are happening. So there’s like, I’m working, like, I’m just, I’m going to go back to work on a Saturday instead of like,

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. Why would I set a boundary with work…

Lisa Marie Bobby: …the crappy person I am.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. Why would I set a boundary with work when work actually feels good to me? Why would I protect time with my family when that doesn’t always feel good?

Lisa Marie Bobby: I just had a little like light bulb moment. And other people listening to this are probably like, so obvious, but I literally just had the connection that, that the careerist is really having a relationship with their job slash career. There’s like an attachment to it.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. In our technical language, we refer to this as a third in the relationship, right? That they have an attachment to this third entity that is taking away time, effort, emotional energy and investment away from the primary relationships going on in that person’s life?

Lisa Marie Bobby: Okay. Well, yeah. And so both for people who might be in that situation who are listening to this podcast in seven minute increments on multiple days, because that’s like literally the only time you have either you or somebody who’s listening to this and being like, yeah, I haven’t talked to my partner in like seven weeks. What starts to happen to people over time, both individually, but also as a couple, when there’s that third entity, who’s maybe the silent partner. Silent but demanding.

Silas Hendrich: Silent, but very demanding, right? And sometimes not so silent when, you know, a partner gets a phone call the middle of the night that they have to address because they have to, because they don’t have an option. It really goes both ways. So I don’t know. And we’re painting with broad strokes here. I mean, results vary depending on the actual job and the industry.

Lisa Marie Bobby: You’re such a therapist. It depends.

Silas Hendrich: I know. And everyone hates that language too. It is, when they come in, they’re like, “So what do I do?” I’m like, “Well, it depends. I don’t know. Like your situation is inherently different.”

Silas Hendrich: At the same time, there are commonalities with it, namely, it’s difficult. So we’re having this conversation in two parts. One for the individual who is in that demanding career, right? And for the individual who is on the outside looking in to that career, right? One of the big issues is that, and this is true for all couples, but it’s kind of on steroids for couples in this situation where it’s very hard for the outside partner to have a lot of empathy and a lot of understanding for what the career-driven individual’s days are like, right? And so just on the outset, there’s like an emotional empathy gap that is really difficult really to empathize with. Just to use it as a convenient example, like my life, my partner is an emergency medicine doctor. Her days are unfathomable for people who are not also a doctor. And even another doctor, like emergency medicine versus a dermatologist is a great example, right? Or something like that. Like even then, like there’s a huge empathy gap there in terms of the things that my partner is going through on a day-to-day basis. She has people die. She has to kind of wrap her head around figuring out whether or not she made a mistake or is dealing with difficult stuff. She’s working with the homeless population very regularly coming in for medical care, right? And as much as I can understand the words that she is communicating to me, the emotional depth of it is not something that I can access very well, right?

Lisa Marie Bobby: I have to say though, and this is coming from you and I happen to know you and I know that you are a natural empath on the spectrum of empathic and like mindsight. You are so strong in that area. And for you to say, sometimes I just can’t even wrap my head around it or it feels like there’s this disconnect. You are so gifted in this area that I just want to emphasize then what a profound issue this probably is for many people who are in these types of relationships who might not have your natural abilities. I would

Silas Hendrich: Seriously, yeah, I mean, I, it is a massive advantage in our relationship that I am a therapist. We joke about that not infrequently because it’s right there.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Well, not all therapists are empathic.

Silas Hendrich: But yes, that like naturally my career is, is, is very beneficial to us maintaining a healthy emotional relationship, and, you know, I have a greater capacity to empathize with her. And, you know, I’m sure there are other couples out there where it’s not a therapist partner who can do the same thing, right? But by and large, like there is no matter how you slice it, there’s a gap there.

Lisa Marie Bobby: And then so before we leave, I’d love for you to teach us some of the things that you’re doing to make that empathy gap a little bit smaller because you’re saying that this is one of the primary things that happen. So I’m just going to stick a flag in that and we’ll come back to that towards the end of our time together. We’ll have like, okay, here’s what to do. So anyway, but you’re saying there’s this empathy gap and the person who’s less, like, of a maniac can sometimes really not understand what’s going on.

Silas Hendrich: Really not understanding what’s going on. And it’s a really hard pill to swallow when that person has needs in the relationship that are going unmet. Right? Hey, I’d really love for you to be at home in time for dinner that I’ve really kind of worked hard to make for you to make sure that you’re fueled and ready to go. Hey, can we spend some quality time together? I know that you have a lot of work to be doing and you have a lot of deadlines coming up, but like we haven’t spent any quality time this week. Can I get an hour of your time this evening? Right. And that partner is on the other side of that. hearing that thing of like, how do I fit this in? Like I have 50 things on my to-do list that I need to do. If I don’t get these things done, X, Y, and Z consequence is going to happen. I’m going to get further behind and that’s going to make the initial problem harder. Right? It’s not that I don’t want to spend time with my partner. I don’t want them to feel like that at all, but also my hands are tied because my problem and being stressed and my anxiety levels are only going to get worse if I don’t spend all evening working and sit staring at my laptop for a period of time. Right? And then you can get into really kind of problematic conflict cycles where the partner on this side is like, “Hey, I need you to do this. I feel lonely. I feel like I miss you.” The other partner is like, “I’m sorry, but I have X, Y, and Z things due today. What do you expect me to do if I don’t do this? People are… This is a little bit melodramatic. People are going to die.” Right? Like…

Lisa Marie Bobby: I mean, for your partner, that might actually be true.

Silas Hendrich: For her, it’s a little bit more literal of like, “Hey, I’m sorry that I spent 12 hours today doing like three cardiac arrest cycles and intubations and I still got to write all my notes and this kind of stuff.” And it’s the, “I’m sorry, buts” that can get really problematic, where like, they know it, I know it. Everyone knows why the thing is happening, but that doesn’t take away the fact that a need is going unmet. And if we don’t… If both partners on either side of that don’t handle that very well, you’re basically just creating resentments that are on repeat. Right? You run into that same situation over and over again as the career is continuing to suck more and more time and space away from your relationship. And at the end of it, all that thing that that career-driven person is working for in terms of financial gain and the lifestyle may not amount to anything because the relationship might be dead. Right? There may be no emotional warmth, empathy, compassion, closeness at the end of it. And you kind of have to look at one another and be like, “What was the point of this?”

Lisa Marie Bobby: Because that’s one of the myths, right? But I’m doing it for us. I’m doing it so that we’ll have a better life. We can have all these nice things. Right? And that absolutely at the end of the day, like, when it all crumbles around you. And I think that that’s very common. I think especially for entrepreneurs, it’s a known issue of thinking about, oh my God, some of the best brand marketing I’ve ever seen in my life. Have you ever seen a commercial for a Patek Philippe watch? They’re like $100,000 watches. And it’s this legacy and being with your family and giving your kid this watch, and thinking that’s the devil’s bargain that some entrepreneur is probably making. “But I gave you a watch.”

Silas Hendrich: And, you know, I’m presenting it as if the career driven person is 100% on board for a family life that kind of thing. That may not always be the case. 50% of it or 60% or 70% of it might be like, “I actually really want the status that comes with all of this work and the family and the couple stuff isn’t as high of a priority as I was saying.” And like those dynamics are not always talked about or even realized when the relationship begins.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Ooh, okay. So let’s crack into that a little bit more. So you’re saying that there’s sometimes, you know, getting through graduate school, for example, when both people are like, “We hate this. This is not ideal. Let’s just get through it.” But that is kind of a different thing when maybe one partner actually has values that are attached to the status, the money, also maybe like the building or the developing or the being that person, whereas their partner really wants to have a different type of lifestyle that the money or the status is really not as important to them. They want to go as a family to the kid’s soccer games, like that kind of thing. And that it’s hard to get visibility into that before you commit to a relationship. Yeah.

Silas Hendrich: It’s hard to know when we start our relationships, right? Because we’re at very different life stage developments, right? When we’re in grad school or we’re in college or even immediately after when we’re working our first jobs, we think we want one thing, right? But as soon as we get a little bit more established and we get along, people can reestablish priorities and goals depending on, again, and this is if you’re getting all your positive feedback from your work, your goals might be reoriented more around goals than it is around your home life just because that feels better, right? And it’s a shame for both parties because you can’t predict that sort of thing, right? And if you’re not brutally honest upfront about what the possibilities are or what you’re in for it, you may run into that issue. You may run into that issue even if it may not matter.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah. And I think it’s also subterranean. Who’s going to say out loud, “I care more about my career than our kids.” Those are not words that are uttered even if that is actually what people are doing.

Silas Hendrich: Correct. The only exception to that I can give is if it’s two very career-driven people who are on board for that of like, “Hey, we’re both career-driven people. We prioritize a career over. This is a compatibility thing where actually we feel more compatible because we’re much more career-driven than anything else. Now, how do we balance relationship around both of us prioritizing our career over one another? Can we make that fit in?”

Silas Hendrich: Yes and no.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Okay. Well, Silas, you have done such a magnificent job of kind of setting the framework and also giving us some visibility into what it feels like to be the partner who’s almost like, … I don’t know if this is the right word, but waiting, wanting, like, “When are you coming home?” That kind of thing and what that does and that disconnect and how it erodes over time. But take us into what you have come to understand about the perspective of the person who is out there doing all the things and what that starts to do to them over time and how it impacts the relationship.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. So we should acknowledge that there’s like an underlying societal process going on here that societally we glorify the hard worker or the person who is doing the incredible thing. We glorify the entrepreneur. We glorify the doctor. Society doesn’t look as kindly at the partner who is maybe less career-oriented. It is more about homemaking or that sort of stability by and large. So that is like a self-reinforcing message going on under the surface of like, “I can’t challenge what my partner is doing or how much time they’re spending on doing it because they’re working so hard. They’re so productive. Look at all the amazing things that they’re doing. My needs pale in comparison to the needs that they’re meeting outward in this way. How can I ask for things when their mission or their goal is so serving or so valuable?” And so there’s almost like an ethical or a moralistic issue there, which reinforces a dynamic that I think a lot of those partners struggle with, which is it’s really hard to ask for what they need. And sometimes they wait too long or wait too much, or they sit on too much before they say something is wrong. I want to be supportive of my partner. I don’t want them to take away from all the work that they’re doing. I don’t want to be the thing that gets in the way of their success or the benefits that they’re bringing about their lives. I don’t want to get in the way of the doctor who is saving people’s lives. I don’t want to make them feel bad about the work that they’re doing when it’s already so difficult.

Lisa Marie Bobby: And you’re absolutely right. There’s also the societal message about what they’re doing is important and valuable and so that we need to prioritize this and help them. So your needs take a back seat. And I, okay, I guess two things coming up here. And I know like even just thinking about my own relationship because I’m the maniac in my marriage, right? And so I think that there’s also over time, especially in certain seasons, like the mental and emotional, even physical toll that that starts to take on somebody. And I don’t want to ask any overly personal questions, but I would imagine anybody in your partner’s role, who’s an emergency room doc, especially a trainee, who might struggle with things like burnout, vicarious trauma, feeling really overwhelmed, like coming home after days of this and not actually being that okay. I know I’ve had some weeks where I’m like, not that great and not taking good care of myself, not sleeping. And so then I think that what that turns into is if I start asking them to do more stuff for me now, it’s just going to make them worse. It’s going to be harder. They’re obviously not okay.

Silas Hendrich: Exactly. Like the exhaustion, the fatigue of maintaining that can get to our partner sometimes. Right? And it’s great that you brought it there, Lisa, because that creates another cycle that can happen, which is like, I’m the supportive partner. I want to help my partner. I see that my partner is getting home fatigued and exhausted. And I’m like, “Hey, have you eaten today? Have you consumed any food? What’s going on there?”

Lisa Marie Bobby: Drink some water.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. Drinking water. I mean, basic needs. I’m sure you’ve had those days, Lisa, where you’re working so much that where do you fit in the lunch break? I’m guessing. Are you drinking water throughout the day?

Lisa Marie Bobby: Food is for mortals.

Silas Hendrich: Right. And so the supportive partner sees that they’re like, “Right. That is a need that I can help with. I can’t help with all their work-related stress. I can’t answer any of those questions. I can’t help them with that. What I can help them with is I can make sure that you’re eating or I can make sure that you’re drinking.” I’d be like, “Hey, when you’re on shift,” in my example, “Can you take five minutes to go and take care of a personal, even go to the bathroom?” That sort of stuff. Right? But you’re just telling that someone who is so fatigued and exhausted, they know that they need to eat. But they may not feel the physical desire even to eat. Or they may be like, “I can’t even take time for that. I got to keep going.”

Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah. Or it’s a vending machine.

Silas Hendrich: Or yeah. Or it’s a vending machine. And I’m sitting in a supportive partner like, “I can make you lunches. I can make sure that the hot meals are done.” And they may or may not be able to actually utilize those. And I feel resentful for trying so hard to meet those basic needs that then go unmet. To no fault of anyone’s, but… And that’s, I think, the thing that gets people stuck a lot, but it certainly gets me stuck a little bit. It’s like, “This is no fault of anyone. Why am I so angry and frustrated with my partner like they’re not letting me help?” Right.

Lisa Marie Bobby: I hear that. Matt said the same thing. “Why do I spend all this time making dinners for everybody that nobody eats?” Because it does take energy and it’s also an expression of love, and then people are not…

Silas Hendrich: And you’re kind of limited to that. Sometimes I feel like that’s all I can do. And it’s like a no-win scenario for everyone involved, except it isn’t. And maybe we’ll get that in here soon of like, “Okay, what can you do? And how do you acknowledge these things?”

Lisa Marie Bobby: We’re going to turn a corner and bring us back into the light. We’re going to get there. But another thing that’s coming up for me, and I feel like we just need to talk about this because I think maybe many times the default assumption is that in this scenario, the entrepreneur, the person with a big career might be the male partner, at least in a heterosexual relationship, and that a woman would take more of a supportive role. And so we’re both in situations where that is not the case. And I think it’s actually less the case than people might assume, which is fine. But do you think this is different experience for a man in a supportive role in a heterosexual relationship than it might be for a woman? Are there other complexities to this?

Silas Hendrich: That’s a really good question, Lisa, and it’s probably something that I should be confronting more in my own personal work. I don’t know. I was in a conversation with my partner maybe a couple of weeks ago, and it was something related with money. And she sort of challenged me. She’s like, “Do you think that you’re uncomfortable with the fact that I’m going to make way more money than you, and this is why we’re having this conversation?” And I had that thought of like, “I’ve known for a long time that you’re going to make a lot more money than I am.” And I thought that I’d come to terms with it, but maybe I didn’t. And maybe there is a part of me that’s resentful or struggling with that. How would I know if that was the case? Everyone should be seeing a therapist or a coach to help challenge you on these things. But I think there is probably some uniqueness as people are adjusting to new family structures and new income potentials and just different dynamics that I think we’re not used to societally and not prepared for societally that can cause some friction there.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah, I get that. And that’s that. What does it mean about me? Do I have thoughts or beliefs about what should be happening that’s different than what is happening? And is there almost an inner tension that’s contributing to the stress?

Silas Hendrich: I think for men who are on the flip side of all of this, I think that there is a certain amount of shame and insecurity that they have a hard time confronting with that. Maybe I’ve looked at all the examples of other men in my life and they’re always the primary breadwinner or the primary worker and this kind of stuff. And I’m in a relationship where I’m not. And I feel like I need to be contributing more. And what I’m contributing to the household doesn’t feel real to me, because I haven’t been told or shown that that’s a real contribution.

Lisa Marie Bobby: That’s really unfortunate. Because it is, it’s so important. I mean, somebody needs to be holding down the freaking fort or it’s not going to work. But there’s almost more approval or acknowledgement for a woman to be in that role. But to be a man in that role, it feels like you’re not contributing.

Silas Hendrich: Am I doing enough? And am I even doing a good job of it? Even. If I’m the one who’s at home and I’m working, but I have way more capacity for outside behaviors or outside household management than my partner does, am I doing a good enough job? Or are they just actually better at that than me too? And so why am I bothering? And it becomes this really cruel cycle. Now, they’re definitely not going to voice any needs that they have because they’re failing at the one thing that is kind of their domain while they’re also not making as much money. And they’re like, and they’re floundering and thinking like, oh, I don’t deserve this person now. It’s gone even further. And so that is so hard to deal with that level of shame and insecurity. And I mean, Lisa, as you and I both know, shame only gets more powerful. The more we avoid it and the longer we go without acknowledging that shame, the more powerful it gets over time. And it leads again to like a lack of confidence within a relationship that has a whole slew of downstream negative impacts on a relationship.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Absolutely. When I’m just, you know, I’m coming in the door, it’s like seven o’clock at night, I’ve been sitting at my desk since freaking five o’clock in the morning. And Matt will pull like a frozen pizza out of the oven. Like, I’m so sorry. And I’m like, are you kidding? Like the fact that somebody did something about dinner that wasn’t me, like I don’t care. Cheese and crackers. Totally fine. But like, there’s, but that to be mindful that you’re saying that out loud because of what you’re saying, this like shame piece, because then that contributes to this lack of communication, this disconnection that if you’re not okay, you feel like you can’t talk about it. And, like, hiding. You know, I think shame makes us all hide.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. And it’s lovely to bring up like a genuine expression of gratitude that’s enthusiastic can do so much good for a situation like that. Like, like my partner may be exhausted and fatigued and tired whenever she gets home. Right. But if she gives me like, oh my God, this dinner is amazing. Like it tastes really good. Like thank you so much for doing this, even if it’s a frozen pizza or anything like that. Like that level of enthusiasm tonally and that warmth that she can convey does so much good to everyone involved really, because it means that I can match that and that can be just as warm and thoughtful back to her, which is good. And so it creates this positive feedback that is beneficial, but feels impossible at times. Right. I mean, how can I expect her to do that every day when say she had like two or three people die, or she had a 30 year old who went through a cardiac arrest and she doesn’t know if they’re going to make it the next day as she’s checking their charts throughout the evening to see what’s happening with it. How, how is she supposed to do that? Lisa, how are you supposed to do that after like 10 back to back meetings in a day and you pop out and all you want to do is go to bed and go to sleep, but you have to do more work. And then your partner’s like, Hey, what about me?

Silas Hendrich: So one of the, I think most effective interventions that I can do with a couple who are in this kind of situation is it’s addressing this sort of like out of control. Like we have no agency or power to change our situation that as soon as we can get even, or even an ounce of control or an expectation that can be readily met, a lot of the frustration resentments that can come with this sort of dynamic can begin to fade away a little bit more. And one of the common complaints that happens with a couple in this situation is like, “I can’t…” There’s the partner who works and has a career. They’re like, I can’t set any boundaries, right? If work calls, I have to answer, right? I can’t say no at any point to the career, right? This creates resentment from the partner on the other side. Cause it’s like, I can’t count on you for anything. Like I have no reasonable expectation for when you’re going to be home or the basically what you’re telling me is that I can’t expect anything from you. What I get is essentially a bonus and I should be grateful for that. And that’s one of the quickest things that I, in my work begin to evaluate a little bit is like, how true is it that we can’t set boundaries? And is that actually the case or is that just something that we have gotten used to over time as it’s slowly encroached and began to dominate our lives? Is there even one day a week where you can set a reasonable boundary with work where you will absolutely be home at a certain time, right? So that your partner can count on that at the very least, right? If we can set even one boundary with work, that can open up a whole slew of opportunities for that couple, which is like, Oh, actually we can do this. And the consequences of setting that boundary that I thought were the case, were not actually the case where they were different than what I had realized. That sort of intervention can be really powerful for being like, Oh, maybe we can have our cake and eat it too, at least a little bit here. And having a sense of agency or control is a big deal just from a psychological perspective, but even a relational health perspective, like we’re not helpless. We’re not at the whimsy of whatever the winds are taking us to, like we can steer this ship at least a little bit, right? That is enormously helpful.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Can I also add to this a perspective for like the entrepreneur and the relationship or the person with the big huge career? because this is actually something that changed things for me. You know, I think that years ago, there was a certain level of nobility that comes with being a, like, maniac workaholic, right? Like I’m doing all the things and whatever. But, you know, I think it is also true, especially as you develop a business or become more established in a career that the true measure of success is actually your freedom. And if you’re an entrepreneur who cannot leave your business for 10 minutes, because things will fall apart, it’s actually a sign of a dysfunctional, non scalable, poorly managed business. It’s not like some kind of heroic thing. And getting that memo was like, oh, and I think it’s true for a lot of people in careers that especially if you have attained a certain level, your status symbol is the ability to have more control over your time and your energy. And so I just wanted to put that out there for any, and I know that, you know, there are seasons, we do what we have to do, but stick that in the hopper.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah, I’m so glad you brought that up. Because even like, yeah, the fear, the sheer fear and terror of like letting go and setting a boundary with work is enormous for so many people, right? Even if they know that that’s the promised land of where they’re going to, they think, oh, I have to get to the promised land in order to have that, right? I have to make XYZ a certain goal, or I need to do XYZ a certain thing in order to do that, which is not always the case. But you really have to talk about the real and present danger and fear that comes with it. And the responsibility that person holds of like, if I set a boundary with work and it doesn’t work out, and it means that we lose revenue, right? That impacts my partner. And that’s a bad thing too. So I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place. And it feels like I, or at least it feels like I am.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah, but you’re saying to do some reality testing around what is fear, you know, most entrepreneurs are deeply traumatized individuals is also part of this as well. But like, so what is that, like, you know, the catastrophe narrative that’s coming up. And so what you’re saying is to really sit down and take a look at what are the points of control? And what is a reality based fear that isn’t? And just to see like what you have to work with would be step one.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. And that, we call it step one, that’s a really complicated step. Right? I think we’re oversimplifying it a little bit for the audience a little bit, right? Because one of the big barriers there is like, the partner who’s asking for that needs to understand what they’re asking for in terms of like the fear and the terror. Like if they don’t have a level of like empathy and validation towards that with the partner who’s working, that partner is not going to let go. If you don’t understand like what it takes for me to set this boundary with work, I’m not going to do it. Right?

Lisa Marie Bobby: Right. And there might be structural things. I mean, it might take like months of work to actually get it to that place where you can do that. Yeah.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. And like, and this is easy when it’s an early intervention. It’s really hard when it’s a late intervention, when a couple’s been stuck in the cycle for a very long time. Right? Because I’ve seen so many couples where like there’s like an eye roll that happens when the, I’m talking about this with a couple and the partner with the career driven stuff is like, Oh yeah, yeah. I’ve been working in X, Y, Z thing so I can get time away and I can spend more time at home. And I see the other partner roll their eyes and be like, Oh, you said, they’ve said that for the past five years. I don’t have any reason to believe that that’s true.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Trust has been eroded.

Silas Hendrich: And like it can get, it can be brought back, but it is a hard to do when it’s been five years as opposed to one year. It’s a little bit easier to get some buy-in to that and create some shifts.

Lisa Marie Bobby: But so the, the road to repair then is showing your partner, it sounds like that it can be different. Here’s where I can have control. Here’s where I can come home. Here’s where I can be more reliable, more present, but then follow through.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. You need traction. You need a win somewhere to start to build some buy-in. Once you have one win, then you need more, but it becomes a little bit easier.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah. Okay. So that’s the first step. What’s the next step? You know, the people listening to this, just, like, thank you for saying this is a process. It occurs over time. I’m hearing that, especially if it has become entrenched, you might want some support to help navigate this. Where do we go next?

Silas Hendrich: I think you need a way to inject some, like, warmth and compassion back into the relationship. And that again, that’s simple to say hard to do, right? Because you’re probably dealing with one or both partners who’s dealing with like some self-esteem or some confidence issues. as a result of this dynamic for a long time. And positive feedback loops are the best ones. We want to solicit change through positive feedback more than negative feedback and finding ways to do that. It can be challenging, but very rewarding when you find something that works.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Give us some examples.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah. So I’ll use one from like my personal life of like a, and I’ve sort of already alluded to this, but my partner’s like enthusiasm when she greets me, when she comes home from work is really key. She’s really good at doing it in a way that I can imagine is sometimes difficult to do, right? That it’s very hard to feel warm and positive towards someone when they’re just greeting you in that sort of monotone like, Hey, how’s it going? How’s your day? Sort of like token responses versus a, Hey, it’s so nice to see you. I’m glad that I’m home. I’m sorry that I’m late. X, Y, and Z happen, but I’m so glad that I’m home and I’m looking forward to spending some time with you. That holds a lot of power as opposed to, Hey, I had a crappy day at work. I don’t want to talk about it. Yeah. Like, you know, even if those things are true and you are feeling really low fatigue, that capacity to like take 30 seconds before you walk in that door to compose yourself so that you can deliver this sort of more enthusiastic response.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Like, come with a little bit of energy.

Silas Hendrich: Right. And that positivity can create a positive feedback that really injects itself into the system as a whole that the person that’s receiving it, they feel really good. So it’s a lot easier for them to, for instance, be forgiving for a boundary that was crossed a little bit of like, well, you walked in 20 minutes late. However, like you were so excited to see me that I almost don’t care. Those little instances are small in nature, but big in impact if they are done regularly and with some amount of value. Right. Yeah. The other thing really kind of comes to mind with that is how do you share about your day? I think this is an issue that happens a lot with people who are highly career oriented is that they’re spending, you know, they like work, they enjoy it, right? And they’re doing 80% or 90% of the day. And sometimes when they come home, they’re disincentivized to talk about it because maybe they want to get away from it for a change. They don’t want to talk about it too much, or they’re so tired about even thinking about it that they like, I just want to like shut down, basically. Right. And if we look at it from the other side, what does that say to your partner? Like, Oh, you’re spending 80% of your time outside of this relationship. And you won’t even tell me a little bit about it. Like I can’t even be involved in your life. Right. Like I understand that I can’t literally understand what my partner’s day is like at work, but it’s nice to still hear about it and at least be told, yeah, like, hey, this really challenging thing that happened to me today, or I had this really great thing that happened to me today. Like, I still want to know some things, even if I can’t engage with the material as well as, you know, say a colleague can or someone else. And if a partner gets stuck in the cycle where they’re just not talking about the kind of thing, what are they talking about? What are they connecting over? Because that’s the newness that’s happening in a relationship. You need novelty. Right. If the career driven person doesn’t have a lot of hobbies or anything outside of work, like work is the thing that they can talk about. And if they stop talking about it, you don’t have anything to connect over.

Lisa Marie Bobby: That’s a really good point. Yeah. And so to be inviting them to talk about things and their lives and almost like being a good friend and making space for it and understanding like what a big slice of the pie that might be for them in a way that’s different for you. I would imagine the reverse is true as well. Like, you know, asking the, another partner, like making it a point to be curious about their life in that world.

Silas Hendrich: Making a point. And I should call myself out here. Sometimes I don’t feel like sharing about my day because it feels so much less interesting and valuable than what my partner’s doing.

Lisa Marie Bobby: I went to Target.

Silas Hendrich: Yeah, I went to Target. I went to the grocery store. I bought things for us to eat at dinner. Right.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Which still, like, oh, thank God somebody did.

Silas Hendrich: Right. But, you know, it’s like, I don’t want to talk about that because I want to hear about all the cool like procedures that my partner did. Like it feels like a waste of time to talk about me stuff. Right. And sometimes she has to like challenge me a little bit. Like, no, no, no, I actually want to hear about your day. Silas, I don’t care if you didn’t really do all that much today. Like I still want to know about it. That intentionality and the thoughtfulness that’s communicated with that statement. She may be just as bored as I am talking about how I went to the grocery store and I went to Target. And, you know, I sat with like three or four clients that day, but, you know, nothing really interesting happened because again, I can’t really tell her that much about my day either. Right. Like she, her communicating that she still wants to hear about it, even if she’s actually not all that interested in it secretly on the side, still feels valuable to the partner on the other side. And it’s something that we can connect over and it’s really important that we do so.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So look for those points of connection, find opportunities to exert some agency and work on reestablishing trust, being more reliable and intentionally creating spaces that you can commit to and follow through. These are really good. And you know, I love these because, and I’m hearing you say that like just creating this can take some work and so to not have unrealistic expectations about like snapping your fingers and it’s different, but these are also very actionable and like not, not anything crazy. Are there any other things that you’d like to share with our friends here before we wrap up or cover the biggest points?

Silas Hendrich: I think those are the two big ones, at least in terms of like early scaffolding things that are like really easy to do right off the bat. One thing that is very helpful, but is not always workable in different situations is taking your partner to work. Right. Or that very literal, like let’s spend a day in one another’s shoes to a certain extent. Like that’s not always workable, but it’s very valuable for allowing empathy to come in. Something very cool that my partner’s residency program did. They allowed a partner shadow day, right? So I filled out a bunch of paperwork, did a background check (thankfully I didn’t see anything gnarly), and I spent a shift with her. And I watched her be amazing and be incredible at her job, and also I got to see the realities of what is being asked of her on a daily basis. Her decision fatigue was a lot easier for me to understand when I witnessed her being asked a question while she’s writing a note, while she’s filling out orders for patients, while she’s doing a procedure. Yeah, like, it’s this constant thing. And I was like, oh, okay. I didn’t fully understand how many decisions you’re making in an 8- or 12-hour period. That makes sense why, when I ask you, what do you want for dinner, you can’t answer. Like I get that now.

Lisa Marie Bobby: What I’m imagining, too, well, and I don’t know, and maybe this is like longer, like you have to stabilize, restore empathy, restore trust, get to a basic, but then at some point I would imagine starting to have like life design conversations. Do we want to be doing this five years from now, 10 years from now?

Silas Hendrich: That’s very much not the end phase, but the middle-to-end phase is, is this what we really want? And is this serving us and our true goals?

Lisa Marie Bobby: Silas, this has been such a fascinating conversation. And I’m so glad that you joined me today and shared some of your expertise, but also are talking about a process. And you are not going to say this yourself. So I’m going to say it, that if anybody’s listening to this and thinking like, oh my God, this is me and my life, we probably do need support. I hope that you reach out to Silas directly. Silas, you are just so masterful and come into this with so much sensitivity and insight, but also skill in changing this, but in a very gentle, non-confrontational way that I really value about you. And so you guys, this is the situation, especially if you’ve been in it for a while, that does require support. And so you can come to growingself.com/silas, S-I-L-A-S, growingself.com/silas, to connect directly with Silas. I mean, you got a little bit of his insight and guidance, but there’s so much more where that came from. You can book a free consultation with Silas just to kind of check it out, talk a little bit about your situation, make sure it feels like a good fit on both sides, but it’s no obligation, you can take it from there. So growingself.com/silas. But so Silas, I want to be sensitive to your time. I know we’ve gone a little bit over, but I’m just so grateful for everything you shared today. And I’m glad we created a path forward for people to continue this conversation.

Silas Hendrich: Oh, thank you, Lisa. It was such a pleasure to be on and be able to talk about, essentially brag about my partner for an hour, but also talk about my expertise in the area.

Lisa Marie Bobby: Yeah, well, good. Well, we’re gonna have to do this again because you are a multidimensional human with many areas of expertise. And so this is part one, but we’ll do this again soon.

Silas Hendrich: Okay. Thank you.