Unhealthy Relationships

Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: This is Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, and you’re listening to the Love, Happiness and Success Podcast.

That is The Black Pine with a song The Morning After She Left. When I listened to that song, I think about someone who has belatedly realized that maybe they made some mistakes in a relationship that it is now too late to repair. And that kind of regret is what can happen when people, over time, realize that the relationship that they’ve been in, or the series of relationships that they’ve been in, have not always been the healthiest or best for them. I think sometimes their partners feel that regret more than they do. 

What we see our clients here at Growing Self describe is this feeling often of newfound liberation, when they decide to stop engaging in relationships that are not good for them, and begin, instead, prioritizing their own health and happiness and well-being. And it’s such a joy to be part of. 

It’s an important topic, and one that I wanted to talk about on today’s show because we see a ton of people here at Growing Self. A lot of relational work, we do couples counseling, relationship coaching, but we also help a lot of individual clients who are trying to get clear about their relationships and about themselves. Sometimes they’re coming for help fixing a relationship, maybe with a partner who doesn’t want to come to couples counseling. So they feel like they have to do it on their own. But sometimes it’s from people who aren’t quite sure if they’re in a relationship, that they should spend a lot of time and energy on fixing. Somebody who’s been in a relationship, that for five years, they’re not married. It’s kind of a mixed bag relationship. There are things that they’re not really happy with, and the relationship is stalled. It’s not moving forward, and they’re coming to us for help around. “How hard should I try to make it work with this person?” And when do I just say, “You know what? I need to let this go, and move on, and find a better situation for myself?” That is a tough situation to be in, but one that I think is worth exploring and so that’s what we’re doing today on this episode of the podcast is talking about what a healthy relationship is, what a healthy foundation looks like. What is a sign that there’s growth and opportunity possible, and what is a sign that there might not be growth and opportunity possible? 

To help me with those, I have invited my dear colleague. My colleague, Brittany Stewart, is a marriage and family therapist on our team here at Growing Self. She has a lot of experience working with people around this issue, both individuals and couples. Thank you, Brittany, so much for being here with me today.

Brittany S.: Oh, of course. Thank you so much for having me, Lisa. I’m really looking forward to having this conversation with you.

Dr. Lisa: Oh. Well, me too. It’s one—I mean, I see you in our consultation groups and in our meetings. This is a topic that is clearly just such a passion for you. And that I see and I’ve always admired about you because it’s not just enough for you to help people, like improve their relationships. You’re always sort of listening to “How healthy is this relationship?” “Is this relationship good for both people in the relationship?” because those things really matter a lot. Sometimes, even if we can teach people how to communicate and do the skills, if there’s not a healthy relationship structure underneath,  we need to have that on our radar. 

To jump into this topic, I mean, can you just talk a little bit about what are some of the things that you first notice or listen for? If you’re working with—and we could take it one at a time but like a couple or an individual that might make you think, “Is this really a good situation fundamentally?” And we’re not talking about capital A abuse. That is a different animal. But just like that sort of what’s going on here?

Brittany: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think the first thing that I’m always looking at is, “What is someone’s experience of themselves and their partner in a relationship?” Like, what is the overall quality? Do they feel good about themselves in the relationship? Do they feel like the relationship benefits them, and serves them, and functions while in their life? Do they give their partner the benefit of the doubt? Right? 

When I start to hear that partners believe that their partner is ill-intentioned, or malicious, or doesn’t have their best interests at heart, I can really hear that there’s just been a lot of erosion in the relationship. That really affects how we see ourselves too. If we’re not trusting our partner to be—to have our best intentions at heart, or to really hold us in their hearts in a positive and meaningful way, then that completely impacts how we see ourselves and how we function in the world.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well, how we see ourselves—let’s talk a little bit more about that. I heard you say that when someone believes that their partner is almost out to get them, or is hostile towards them, or is doing things maliciously, how does that begin to change the way someone feels about themselves?

Brittany: I think that can change a few different things about how we might see ourselves. Right? One might be that we start to believe that we’re less worthy of experiencing love, and connection, and belonging. Even though, my hope is always that people know that’s just inherent, and that doesn’t change even with the status of our relationships or the quality of them. But it does impact that belief around ourselves. 

I think the other way it shows up is we might start to experience more anger, or we might start to be more hostile ourselves, or defensive, or aggressive. I think that it kind of forces us to take a look at how we’re showing up in the world, and then feel really difficult, and murky to show up with those kinds of behaviors and emotions, and not know what to do with them.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness. The shame of regret that comes when somebody in an unhealthy relationship begins to—themselves show signs of that, like anger, or hostility, or shows up in weird ways. And then they think, “Oh my God, what am I doing? I’m not being a good partner. I’m not being a good mom,” or whatever it is that they internalize that. 

But then I’ve also heard you say, at the same time, they can be internalizing these messages from their partner that—I mean, I think what we both hear a lot is, “If you were better and if I loved you more, then I wouldn’t treat you this way.” But it plays into that self-doubt, that “I’m not good enough,” that “The reason my partner is saying these things to me or not giving me the love that I need is because I’m not quite good enough. And if I were better, they would be behaving differently. They would be better to me, if I worked on myself.” Is that the trick that people get sucked into?

Brittany: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think I see that a lot, especially, I mean, I would say I see it with people of all genders. Right? That they have this belief over time, whether it’s through failed relationships, or chronic on again-off again, or just a long term relationship that has a lot of wounds in it that have never been healed. They really internalize this thought of like, “I have done something that makes me inherently unlovable or unworthy of having this healthy relationship or, have this healing.” And it’s really difficult to sit in that. And my hope, again, is always that people know that’s not true.

Dr. Lisa: Well, I’m glad that we’re talking about this, though, because I think that what we’re just putting our finger on right here is the—almost like subconscious core belief of people who come—will come in for help with their relationships is like, “Can this be fixed? Should I work on that?” Sometimes I think the place where we need to go to is what they’re telling themselves about the relationship. If for example, they believe that their partner could be much different with a different person who was better than them, and if they just worked on themselves and became the person that their partner wants, then they could be loved. To talk about how, what if that isn’t actually what is happening? What if this is how the person you’re partnered with would show up, whether or not they were with a different person or a better version of you? That can be a big step sometimes, because I think that people really believe that they’re the problem. 

First of all, let’s just say for everybody within the sound of our voice, this is a process. There is not anything that Brittany or I am going to say. There is no piece of advice or wisdom that is going to help you jump over that mountain. But Brittany, when you’re working with a client who is stuck in that place, where they’ve gotten tricked into believing bad things about themselves, where do you even begin? If somebody’s listening to this right now who probably needs to do some of that work, where would they start?

Brittany: Yeah. Well, I think that’s a complicated question because I would approach it differently, right, if I’m just working with one person or been working with a couple. But I think the first step for any change is always just being really aware of what stories were even telling ourselves. And I love Brené Brown’s work. In her Netflix series, or in her Netflix special, when she says “The story I’m telling myself is…” Right. And so I always encourage clients to identify, “What is that story that we’re telling ourselves?”

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. 

Brittany: And just to name it, and so if I’m sitting with an individual, can they just get really clear on what is that story they’re telling themselves? Or if I’m working with a couple, can they just share with each other in a really disarming way? Like, “This is the story in my head.” Right? It may not be true, but it feels very real. And can they just get it out there and name it so that we can work with it? Then of course, it’s really identifying like, “Can we challenge that?” “Is there really evidence that this… that the story you’re telling yourself is true?” “Is it based in any sort of fact or reality, or is it just some emotion that’s coming up, and we’re trying to make sense of it, and the story is the best way that we’re doing that?”

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Just kind of cracking into that narrative and bringing it out into the open, and then just sort of looking at it together. Yeah.

Brittany: Yeah, and then I think, if I’m working with a couple, what can be really powerful about this, right, is we often don’t share the story that’s in our head in a disarming way. Usually, we’re sharing it in a blaming way with our partner. We can tell so much about the health of a relationship and the ability of our partner to really be in it with us when we share that story just based on their response. Right? 

So if we share this awful story or this painful story we’re telling ourselves, and our partner is able to move toward us and comfort us, and say, “Oh, my gosh. That’s the story in your head? Let me help you with that. Right. That’s not how I see it. That’s not what I’m feeling.” That can be really powerful. Right? To help offer that reassurance. Or if there is that lack of comfort and responsiveness. And maybe that story gets reinforced, then that’s a—I would say—that’s a sign. Right? Or something else to look at deeper. Maybe that story is based in some truth about the relationship. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa: No, that’s a great way of looking at this. So on that note too, so you—like all of the marriage counselors on the team here at Growing Self—practice evidence-based forms of couples counseling, and one of the things that the approaches that you’ve really focused on is one called emotionally-focused couples therapy that takes a closer look at the attachment needs of two people in a relationship. What we know from research into emotionally-focused therapy is that when people are in distressed relationships, it impacts—and because relationships are a system—I mean, people impact each other. Right? But what we see is that both people are impacted in such a way that they both stop—how do I say this?—being the best version of themselves. I mean, being in a distressed relationship creates reactions in each person that can be hurtful, and can sort of support that negative cycle.

I think it’s important to talk about that because we expect that in a distressed relationship. Just because that’s happening doesn’t necessarily mean that it is a fundamentally unhealthy relationship. It’s just that we need to do that work of healing. So let’s just even start there. I mean, when you’re working with a couple who has not been in a great place for a year or three—I mean, for a lot of couples, it takes a while to show up in our office. But what would you expect to see that would be normal?

Brittany: Oh, yeah. So usually, right? EFT, or emotionally-focused couples therapy talks about—we get into this dance with our partner, and every one of us has a dance in our relationship. It’s totally normal, and it’s part of being in an attachment relationship. So what I might see that is really normal, I would say the most common thing I see is what we call like the pursuer-distancer or the pursuer-withdrawer. This looks like when partners are in distress, and one partner might like protest, as Sue Johnson calls it.And they might start to demand, or criticize, or try to get any sort of engagement from their partner. Right? They’re just seeking some sort of reassurance or comfort, but it comes out in a way that might be kind of critical or…

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Angry.

Brittany: …and distressing to their partner. When that happens, their partner then gets overwhelmed, and kind of withdraws, or shuts down. It kind of reinforces the cycle over and over again. The more one person shuts down, the bigger one person gets. The more the other partner shuts down, and so on, and so forth. I would say that’s the most common thing I see and it’s really, really normal or common. I guess, I would say, it’s really, really common. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. 

Brittany: There’s a lot we can do with that, because really what we know underneath, right?  When there’s basic safety there, right? This isn’t an abusive relationship. Again, this is a healthy relationship overall, is that we normalize that distress, and we try to identify what’s really happening underneath that. Right? There’s usually some core attachment need for comfort, or safety, or connection, or anything like that. Just really vulnerable attachment need that isn’t being met, and we’re just scared to ask for it in that way. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. I’m so glad that you said all that. I think it’s important to put that out there because I think that’s part of what can get confusing for people who are like, “Is this a bad relationship? Is this an unhealthy relationship?” Because if you’re in a distressed relationship with someone who is engaging with you in a way that makes you sort of feel like withdrawing, and avoiding conversations. The perception from that position is that you’re living with somebody who’s critical, and judgmental, and never quite happy with you, and always complaining about something, and who wants you to be something that you’re not. I mean, that is the inner experience. Right? On the other side of it, the person is experiencing their partner’s being withdrawn or avoided. “They never talk to me. They shut me out. They ignore me.” It doesn’t matter. They just don’t like…

Brittany: They don’t care. 

Dr. Lisa: They’re emotionally checked out. They don’t care. Right. When somebody comes into our office and is like, “This is what’s happening at home. They don’t care, they’re checked out, they’d make me feel like watching ESPN is more important than our marriage.” That’s how it feels. We also need to talk about the fact that this is normal in a distressed relationship, and that this—because this is happening doesn’t mean that you’re in a bad relationship necessarily. But it does require a path of healing, where you can start in a safe place talking about the things that are important. Kind of get reconnected. And I also just want to say, again, that is not a like, “Do these two easy things, and it’ll be all better.” This is a process that requires…

Brittany: Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa: …probably months of, “How do we find this?” So there’s setting everybody’s expectations. Okay, so there’s that. That is normal and expected distressed relationship. How would you say that is different from somebody who is in a relationship, that may feel in some ways similarly, but is actually not a healthy relationship? Do you think that there are sort of like markers that we can look at, or think about that would indicate what is this? Or does it really require that assessment process? Do you have to start doing the work to try to fix it, and then see what happens? How do you begin to sort that out?

Brittany: Yeah. I mean, sometimes, I think that we assess very early on so it can kind of become apparent very quickly. If there is just this common distress happening, and we can work with that. Or if it’s actually that there’s something unhealthy, or problematic, or unsafe happening in the relationship. I think general markers. right? Like the thing I’m always looking for is, “Is there like basic responsiveness?” “Can somebody take accountability and responsibility for their actions in the relationship?” “Can they identify their part and the distress?” And if not, right? I think, again, it’s common to experience where we get caught in blaming each other. But usually, we’re able to eventually step back and say, “Oh, I can see that I do have a part in this.” If we’re just really inherent, or really set on blaming our partner and absolving ourselves of any part of the distress, I think that that’s problematic. 

Then looking for things like, is there a desire to control or to have power over our partner? Is there—are there elements of shaming, and just really deep criticism present in the relationship? Is there manipulation happening? Is there—is one partner trying to isolate their partner? Are they threatening their partner? Is there verbal abuse happening? Those are some markers that I think are indicative of there being a bigger problem in a relationship, beyond just common distress. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, I get that. Just to say out loud, what you’re also talking about are markers that we would associate with domestic violence, or intimate partner violence like the power, and control, the isolation, manipulation. Just to say very, very clearly, it is never appropriate for an ethical couples counselor to attempt any kind of couples counseling in the presence of actual domestic violence or intimate partner violence. It is just a no-go situation. We would not do that because it’s not safe ever. That’s not what we’re talking about here. 

In those situations Brittany, if somebody was listening to this and being like, “Oh, no. It’s actually violent.” Just for the record, what should they do?

Brittany: Oh, absolutely. I would always recommend they both go seek individual therapy, right? Is there something that can be done to help both partners, or at least a safety plan, or do something that really will establish safety for both partners, especially the victims.

Dr. Lisa: There’s a wonderful national resource, it’s called thehotline.org. Day and night, you can call or chat with one of their representatives, who can help you either on the spot if it’s an emergency or also provide you access to all kinds of resources through community mental health agencies, like safe houses, that kind of thing. So if you’re really in trouble, go thehotline.org. Brittany’s recommendation is to get involved in individual therapy, ideally with someone who has that background to help you get safe. So that is not what we’re talking about. 

But Brittany, so what we’re talking about is sort of the—if there’s a spectrum of basic safety in a relationship, and it’s starting to get to this link, I don’t know, sort of area. As a couples counselor, if you’ve determined that it’s okay to continue working with a couple, it’s not that bad that you are going to pull the plug… what are some of the things that you would want to be talking about with that couple? The things that you’re seeing the patterns? Again, it’s not a process. It’s not information all necessarily. It’s a process. But where would you hope to take that process and what would you expect to come from it?

Brittany: Yeah. I always start by helping couples what we call like mapping their dance. Right? So they’re each identifying what moves are they both making in the dance? Are they doing different dances with each other? How are they showing up? And will actually map it out and say, “This is what I’m doing.” And part of the things that they’re becoming more aware of—are some of the things they’re becoming more aware of—are what’s happening in their body. Right? Because we know that emotion shows up in our bodies first. 

So usually, even if it’s subconscious, or even if we’re not really aware of it, there’s probably some somatic sensation happening in our body that were triggered by, that’s telling us that distress is happening, or there’s a loss of connection happening. It kind of sets the stance in motion. So I’m asking each partner to identify, “What’s happening in your body?” “Can you just check in and notice what’s happening?” “What emotions are coming up for you?” Can they name, right? Are they experiencing anger? Are they having… experiencing sadness? Is there judgment happening? What are they thinking right now? What emotions are coming up? 

Then I ask them to name a story they’re telling themselves, and this includes the story about themselves, about their partners, about their relationship. Right? So these might be the like, “I’m not worthy. They don’t love me. Our relationship is broken.” Whatever story they’re telling themselves, and they name it, and then identify what do they do with that. Right? 

Because usually those three things: the emotions, and the sensations in our body, and the stories we’re telling ourselves become too much. And so then we kind of.. we react. How we all handle that distress is going to be different. That’s when we might protest, and become critical, or it might become too much, and we might completely shut down and say, “I’m going to go ahead and move into self preservation and shut down.” So it’s really important that the couples just become really intimate with what is their dance? Can they map it? Can they tell each other about it? Can they do this together—most importantly, versus… it’s me versus you. It’s—this is our dance, and we’re going to talk about it, and figure it out together. And so the first step is really just naming it, getting really familiar with this. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. So that’s what you—what sounds like the place where you would always star. And I think what I’m hearing is that with a couple where there was growth possible, they would be able to engage in that, and be self-reflective, and talk about, “Yeah. This is how I feel. And when you do this, I do that.” And kind of that awareness. How would you contrast that with a couple, maybe that you started working with where you started to think, “Yeah, I don’t know if how much growth is possible here.” How would it be different?

Brittany: Yeah. I mean, I always try to give it a little bit of time, right? Because this attachment work can be really deep. And sometimes it’s harder for people, depending on experiences they’ve already had in their life. If they never have experienced a secure attachment, it might take them a little bit of time. We might have to map it over and over and over again, and give them kind of homework to “go and just see what you notice.” If they can’t really identify, so that’s one thing that might come up.

Dr. Lisa: Thank you for saying that. Yeah. Because that’s really important. Because just if that—if it’s not easy to do at first, doesn’t mean that it’s a horrible relationship that needs to end. It means that there is a therapeutic component involved. And that’s why we’re here is to help people grow, and go through that transformational process.

Brittany: Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa: And so at the beginning, it’s normal that it’s not easy to do that. Okay. Thank you. Yeah. 

Brittany: Oh, yeah. Yeah, this is—it takes vulnerability. This process is really vulnerable. And we have to ease into that. But if beyond that, right? If we’re not ever able to kind of establish that safety to feel vulnerable, and to do this work, then there might come a point, right? Where I might suggest that someone does some individual work around some emotional intelligence, or if they maybe have some attachment stuff to heal from their childhoods, or past relationships, or whatever it might be that’s coming up for them. 

I do—I hope as always, that couples can do this work together because I really do believe that we heal best, and trust that relationships with others. And sometimes we need some individual work just to support us, and identifying what’s happening for us, before we share it with our partner, or therapists in the couple setting.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, to work on yourself. If the wounds run so deep, that you’re really not able to show up in a healthy way in your relationship, that’s a sign that you need to work on yourself a little bit. I would imagine that for someone who will be very unlikely to be able to have a healthy relationship, they would reject that idea, and they would not want to do individual work. So that would be a sign. I would think that it’s probably not going to work out, at least in a healthy way for you. 

Brittany: Yeah, right. Absolutely. I think that at that point, it’s up to everyone to decide, “Is this something that I’m willing to kind of wade out, and hope that my partner changed their mind?” Or yeah, changes their mind? Or, “Do I really have to kind of accept that they’re not in a place to do this growth work right now?”

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Completely.

Brittany: “Maybe that’s not going to serve either of us or this relationship?”

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well, this is really clarifying because I think a lot of people that are stuck in this conundrum, are in a place where they’re trying to figure out, “Is this relationship healthy?” “Can this relationship be saved?” “How much do I want to invest in this relationship?” before having had the opportunity to do the kind of work that you’re talking about Brittany?” So they’re attempting to make these major life decisions without having the information that they need because after four months of working with Brittany, and there’s no movement, and Brittany is recommending that your partner go to individual therapy, and they’re refusing— that is good information upon which you could make a life decision. But before you’ve done that, it’s like you don’t even know what’s possible or not and that is what feels so paralyzing.

Brittany: Yeah, yeah. I think, something that I see with—even people in the dating-coaching world, right? Who are seeking relationships, and also individuals, and people in relationships, is they’re just hoping that they can read the mind of whoever they’re dating, or their partner, and just know what’s going to be possible, or if it’s going to be a functional, healthy relationship. Really, I think that responsiveness is just so important. We have to be able to express what we’re needing, what we’re wanting, what our core needs are, and see how someone responds to that. Which really does require that vulnerability and baseline safety to do that. But how does somebody respond to us, right? When we say that we really want this type of relationship, we want a secure attachment, we want to be able to express emotions, how does somebody respond to that? And if it’s—they’re pushing back on it, or that’s not what they believe in a relationship, then maybe that partner is not suited for us. Or are they interested in doing that, and they want to do that work, and are we willing to allow space for that growth to happen?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Well—and that’s, that’s a wonderful way, and certainly for people who are maybe single and in that dating coaching realm, because we often work with a lot of individual clients who are interested in creating healthy relationships. I think what I have certainly experienced are, oftentimes, people who have become aware that their last several relationships haven’t really been great for them. So they come to us for help with, “Okay, what do I need to do differently this time to connect from the get go with somebody who will be a better fit for me? How am I showing up in relationships?” So that’s an important area of growth work. 

What I’m hearing you say is that one of the keys to that is, as you’re developing a new relationship with someone, just to be really observant. “How is this person responding to me over and over and over again?” And from that, begin to figure out, “Okay, can they respond to me?” But it’s so hard, though, because at the same time, if your core narrative is, “But if I were more lovable, they would be nicer to me,” or whatever it was. And if they’re saying, “Well, if you were just not X, Y, Z, then I wouldn’t be so snappy with you.” It can be so hard as an individual to figure this out and sort it out. It’s complicated.

Brittany: Complicated. Yeah. It really is. Which is why I think responsiveness also includes like, “This is hard for me. I don’t know what to do with this. But I want to be in this with you.” 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Right.

Brittany: “I want us to figure it out together.” It’s okay not to have the answers. It’s okay to mess up and make mistakes and not get it right. We’re all not going to get it right sometimes in our relationships. But where’s that motivation to work on things, and to grow, and to stay in it together?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. And yeah, so you’re saying that in a healthy relationship, you should be hearing some version of that from a partner who has the capacity to be responsive to you? 

Brittany: Yeah. 

Dr. Lisa: Could grow with you? 

Brittany: Yeah. 

Dr. Lisa: Okay. So now one last aspect of this I want to run past you. I think another trap that people can fall into, particularly women, although I see this happen with men too. When they’ve been in a relationship, and maybe for the last couple of years, it’s a long distance relationship. Or maybe they’ve been dating, but they’re not living together and one person is, “I really—I want to live with you. I don’t want to be long distance anymore. I want to get married.” In their mind, there is the sometimes subconscious core belief that goes, “Because if we weren’t long distance, this experience would be different. Or when we get married, this experience will be different than it is right now.” 

That is what they’re sort of holding—so they’re really pushing for this future thing. But that—what they may be missing is like warning signs of an unhealthy relationship that they have interpreted, as well, “When we get married, this won’t happen anymore.” Have you noticed that? And could you speak to that?

Brittany: Yeah. I mean, I think I noticed that in both unhealthy relationships and also just relationships that might be healthy but are having some distress. 

Dr. Lisa: Okay. 

Brittany: I think it’s just part of our culture that it’s really hard for us to be present and focus on what’s happening now. Right? And so we, of course, we create this idea in our head that the future will be better, and there’s like that hope which is positive, and the future might be better. The only thing that changes with time is what we do with it. So it’s really important that we focus on what does the relationship feel like now? What’s serving us? What isn’t serving us? What needs work, and are we willing to put in that work so that we can have that ideal future we’re thinking of?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. 

Brittany: Or we’re thinking, it won’t be present in the future, or this dynamic will be different in the future. What are we both going to do now…

Dr. Lisa: Right.

Brittany: …to help that be a reality? Or is there something actually happening now that is really unhealthy, and i just need to be really aware of it, and name it?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Brittany: And maybe walk away from something that isn’t serving me anymore.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. To differentiate, “Will it actually be better once we’re married or whatever?” Or “Is this the way this—is this actually the relationship?” And Brittany, what you’re saying again is there needs to be effort on both sides to—okay, “How do you imagine it would be once we are married or whatever, and how close to that can we get before this?” Because that’s kind of the sign that it would actually be different once you are married, or once you were living in the same town, or whatever, in terms of the emotional responsiveness and the empathy. Is that it?

Brittany: Absolutely. Do you both have the same expectations? Right?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. 

Brittany: What I am—and this is part of like naming that story again—is what I’m naming, “Is that true for you as well?” Right? Or “Do we have the same expectations, the same hope for our future?” “Are we both hoping that this dynamic is different in the future?” Or “Is this maybe uncomfortable, or painful, or difficult for me, and to you it feels fine?” 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah.

Brittany: If so, that’s a conversation that we need to talk about and see. Are there some—is there a compromise that needs to happen? Is there something that actually does need to be addressed and healed? Or is this something that’s going to cause a really big rupture, and maybe the relationship is not going to work long-term?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. What a great point because if this feels intolerable to me and it’s perfectly fine for you—how close—how can we close that gap at all? If the answer is no, or there’s not willingness on one side to have it be different, that’s important information that is worth listening to.

Brittany: Yeah. Absolutely.

Dr. Lisa: Wow. What a great conversation about such an important topic. I know we need to wrap things up here in a second. But do you have anything else to add on that question around healthy relationships versus unhealthy relationships, and how to tell the difference?

Brittany: Yeah. I think, really, what it comes down to—I tell every couple of this that I work with, “My hope is that you can walk away with what we call attunement, and know how to practice attunement.” Attunement is really just like a process of being present with our partners. It’s where we engage in that emotional response—responsiveness, where we can turn to our partner, we feel like we can be vulnerable. Even if something is difficult, or painful, or uncomfortable, we really trust that our partner is going to be in it with us. 

So I encourage partners, “If you’re feeling disconnected, or you’re feeling like you’re not in attunement, that’s okay. But how can you find your way back to each other and do you both take part in that process?” I think it’s just so, so critical to have that responsiveness and reciprocity in relationships.

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. I love that, especially with the idea that you were talking about earlier, That in a distressed relationship you won’t have that attunement because of that pursue-withdraw cycle. Yet it is something that can be intentionally created if both people are engaged in that process. so that that’s the goal, though, is that attunement. That’s really the fundamental heart of every relationship is that emotional connection, emotional intimacy, feeling of emotional safety. That’s the goal, and that’s what is present in healthy relationships and what feels you know fundamentally not possible, even with work in relationships that aren’t healthy. Is that a good way to summarize it?

Brittany: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Dr. Lisa: Well, Brittany,  thank you again so much for your time and meeting with me today. This was wonderful. Thank you.

Brittany: Oh, of course. Thanks so much for having me, Lisa.

Dr. Lisa: You can learn more about Brittany and her work as a marriage counselor, a couples therapist, an online relationship coach at growingself.com. While you’re there, you can also take our free, “How Healthy Is Your Relationship?” online quiz. You can take it yourself, you can share it with your partner, and then you can compare results. It’s an easy kind of lowkey way to get a snapshot of your relationship with its opportunities for growth, as well as its strength. So you can check all that out and more at growingself.com and I will be back in touch next week with another episode of the Love, Happiness and Success podcast.