How Do People See You

Lisa Marie Bobby: Hi, this is Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, and you’re listening to the Love, Happiness and Success podcast. We are always communicating something whether we realize it or not. So what messages are you broadcasting to the people around you? How can you begin communicating with greater intention? That’s what we’re talking about on today’s episode. 

We are listening to the one and only Courtney Barnett with a song, Nobody Cares If You Don’t Go To The Party, which I thought was the perfect lineup for the discussion that we’re having today around how people really see you that you may not consciously be aware of and what to do about that so that you’re perceived by others and that you’re communicating in a way that your intentions and that your message is received. 

So you can learn more about Courtney Barnett on her Bandcamp page, courtneybarnett.bandcamp.com. Also super quick aside, you’ve probably heard this in my voice already, and I hope it’s not too distracting for today’s episode, but I am in the process of getting over a cold, and so I sound a little bit like a duck. I’m hoping it’ll pass, and I hope that the quality of my voice is not a distraction or an annoyance for anybody today. 

So thank you for bearing with me. You know that being a good communicator is an essential skill for building healthy relationships. This is certainly true at work, but also with your partner, your family and in your friendships. But most of the messages that we broadcast to the people around us are not intentional. We communicate through our word choices, sure, but also our tone of voice, our body language, our facial expressions, and countless other things that don’t feel conscious in the moment. 

We also have different styles of communicating, and we all interpret other people’s styles through the filter of our own experiences, judgments, expectations. So in short, it gets complex quickly, and it’s easy to see why it’s so common for two people to walk away from the same conversation, or sometimes completely different interpretations of what just happened, let alone, what was communicated. 

I know I see this all the time in couples counseling sessions, and I know it’s really common in the workplace as well. So this is why becoming a better communicator is about more than just practicing your eyes statements or asking open ended questions. It’s also about building your self awareness about how you’re coming across to others, so you can make sure that your message and your intended message are in alignment. So this is a big topic. 

There is much to discuss, and luckily, I have a true communications expert to help me unpack it all with you today. My guest is Maryanne O’Brien, who helps companies transform their cultures through improved communication. Maryanne is the author of The Elevated Communicator: How to Master Your Style and Strengthen Well-Being at Work. 

While her focus is on communication in the workplace, the ideas that she’s sharing with us today certainly apply to any relationship, both personal and professional. Maryanne, I am delighted to speak with you today. Thank you for doing this.

Maryanne O’Brien: Thank you, Lisa. I’m happy to join you.

Lisa: Yeah. So there’s so much going on here. I mean, this is a huge topic, because I am for better or for worse, Maryanne, insatiably curious about humans in general. I am just so curious about how you came on this as your area of expertise professionally. Is there a story behind it? How did we get here?

Maryanne: Yeah. One of my earliest childhood memories was right around the age of five. I started to recognize that words had power. You know it’s one of those situations, I can picture myself on the playground, and I can remember thinking like, oh, gosh, how we talk to each other, it’s a way to build friendships, to show how much we care about people, to persuade them to play our game, to make them laugh. I also could see how it was used to hurt people, right? 

As children, we can see insecurities, how to poke at an insecurity, how to tear someone down or make them cry. I thought, gosh, it’s such a powerful medium, and most people didn’t really think about how they were communicating. I’ve always been drawn to how do we connect, how do we build relationships. So I wound up going into journalism as my education, because I thought, gosh, if you can shape narratives, you can change the way people think. 

I wound up spending the first 15 years of my career in advertising, and worked at one of the top agencies in the world. It was an amazing place to work, and it was really intense, so the way people communicated there was on a spectrum, to being very intentional and not at all. Part of our training there was we were taught the skill set of doing the job, but at a certain point, your skill set only gets you so far, and then your own issues getting in the way. 

So they also taught us how to really understand ourselves, so we can get out of our own way and be more successful. I wound up going into consulting, ultimately. No matter what I was brought in to help, whatever problem it was to solve, whether it was about branding or culture or training for the teams, essentially, the bigger problems were the people problems, and everything boiled down to communication on some level. 

There was miscommunication. There were tensions. There was behaviors that people had no awareness of. I just have always found it to be a path to higher levels of self awareness and stronger relationships. I think communication is at the heart of our success, and it’s at the heart of our ability to connect on a human level. I think we all want to be successful in our careers or in our lives, right? We want happiness and meaning and great relationships. 

Somehow we’ve conflated success with what we have or what we do, but it’s really about the quality of our relationships, which comes down to how well we communicate. So I’ve just seen how inside organizations, there’s a pretty big gap between how we know we can communicate when we’re at our best and things are going well, and our well being is pretty strong, and then how we communicate when we’re under stress or we’re tired. 

With more people experiencing more stress and anxiety and burnout than ever before, the ability to communicate on this conscious level just has never been more important. So the upside is people are stepping into this level of work, and really wanting to understand what can I do to support myself and shift my relationships? and recognizing that the first thing you can change is yourself.

Lisa: Definitely, I couldn’t agree more, and really, I love what you’re saying about the centrality of communication really being at the heart of any issues in the workplace, and I see that so clearly from my own perspective. So I don’t know if you know this about me or not, but my profession, I’m a marriage and family therapist by trade, and I tell you what, 9 times out of 10, when couples come in for counseling, and I’m like, “Well, how can I help you?” 

It’s around communication. People are not feeling heard. They’re not feeling understood, or that they are feeling frustrated that what they’re saying is being received differently by their partner than how they’re intending it. It’s just like this disconnect, and it’s so frustrating. It causes so many problems in relationships, and really, I mean, to the detriment of families and people’s well being. 

So that’s why I’m just so thrilled that we’re here today talking about, I think, this very important facet of communication, which is increased awareness of how others are seeing you because I think it’s so easy for all of us to have intentions and inside of our heads believe sincerely that we are communicating one thing that may be experienced in a very different way than were intending by other people. 

I know that you’ve put a lot of thought and energy into exactly this. I’m so curious to know where do you think this disconnect can come from, and I know that this is a huge question. There’s probably many parts of this to unpack. But where should we start?

Maryanne: Well, there’s a couple of things that quickly come to mind. One is that most of the time, we don’t understand what other people’s communication needs are, so we communicate from our own. That’s why most of the time, someone whose style is very different, will receive information in a different way, and they might shut down. So for example, they can express it. They have to feel a personal connection with you. They want to know about you. 

They want to air out ideas. They’ll ask personal questions. They will talk. They really like to engage on so many levels that say you’re talking to someone who’s direct, they have no need for that. So they will shut down quickly. They’ll be like, “Oh, my God, they go on another tangent.” I’m not listening because this has nothing to do. Their need is focus. Their need is results. So sometimes we have a need that gets clashed. 

Every style has different needs. And I don’t think people really think about what their needs are, whenever they’re communicating until there is some sort of tension. And most people are kind of half listening. At best, there’s just far too many distractions, you know, and I think it even actually happens more at home than it does at work. I mean, it’s abundant at work, you know, people are on their computers, they’re in a meeting multitasking, their phone is, you know, always present, even then what the some of the studies have shown, which was interesting is that just the mere presence of our phone takes 20% of our awareness and understanding out of the equation. And we always have our phones present, but I think when they think about at home is, you know, we’ll say to someone, like, I feel like you’re not listening to me, you know, we don’t say that at work. And that would be better if we could find a level of trust on that level where you could, you know, raise that topic. 

But in order to have a conversation where you’re vulnerable, there has to be some level of trust. And so sometimes it’s style, sometimes it’s our inability to give someone our full attention, or to listen with empathy, right, because we’re filtering everything through our own brain process, versus trying to see something from another perspective. And, you know, the subconscious mind, so is always operating. And that’s driving 95% of our behavior and our communication behavior. And so when you’re looking at your style, there are three style expressions, there’s when you’re at your best, which is your healthiest style of expression. And that’s, that’s when you’re really intentional. And that takes energy. And we do that whenever a conversation is important. 

There’s some sort of high stakes, most of the time we operate in autopilot mode. And then on the other end of the spectrum is our style under stress. And that’s when we’re at our worst. And so in this middle area, where we have our autopilot mode, this driving most of our behavior that’s coming from our programming, right? It’s coming from our beliefs, our values, our past experiences, some sort of, you know, we’ve all had trauma on some level, I think, sometimes we don’t think we’ve had big capital T trauma, we’ve all had trauma, you know, if you have an emotional trigger, you have had trauma. 

When we are filtering through our own unique brain wiring, what they’ve shown through Dr. Bruce Lipton’s work in epigenetics is that 70% of our programming is faulty. So that’s why we end up at different destinations, right? You were talking earlier about like, you can be having the same conversation, and people leave with two completely different interpretations, because we are filtering through our own brain. And like if seven out of 10 conversations can lead to miscommunication or misunderstanding, and we’re filtering it through our own needs and triggers, you know, if that was Google Maps take to the wrong destination. Out of 10 times,

we wouldn’t get into the right, we don’t really think about, you know, it’s important to look at, you know, how am I processing? And this why am I getting so, you know, riled up about what you’re saying? Nobody else seems to be.

There are a lot of reasons why miscommunication happens. Understanding your style, that was actually one of the biggest reasons I wrote the book was I wanted to help people in organizations understand themselves better. And to be able to understand other people without judgment, because we judge people who aren’t like us. And the reason I wrote it about work was because we are at our best at work, but if you’ve changed your behavior, it’s going to change how you behave at home. But because we need to keep our jobs, we’re more willing to build skills at work, you know, and behave well at work. But my every time I lead a training most like take these skills home, like those are the people that matter the most in your life, you know, give them the best of who you are. So, you know, there’s so many reasons that we communicate and have missed community nation. And that’s why it’s not just a two hour workshop that you can take or read a book, it is a practice that allows you to, you know, create small changes in who you are, and continue to change and evolve and evolve. 

The more you change and the more self aware you become, it just continues to lead to a higher level of self awareness and transformation. So, you know, good news, bad news was like, There’s no end to change. And you can create such a much richer level of relationship and connection with people than you ever thought possible. And it truly is possible. I’ve seen people apply these principles and techniques, and radically change the level of trust that they have in their relationships. 

Lisa: That is so exciting. And I love to, you know, being able to use professional development as a doorway to personal development as well. You know, we talk a lot about emotional intelligence skills on this podcast, among other things. And I think that for many people, you know, the entry point into even thinking about emotional intelligence comes from professional development, like workplace issues. And what I love the most is that the skills and abilities that they’re developing has a direct impact on the quality of the most important relationships in their lives. 

I want to go back to something that you said a moment ago about how rampant miscommunication really is, if you’re in that, like autopilot space, or the stressed space, certainly. And then even if you’re trying real hard, it’s also easy for miscommunication to happen. And in my experience, maybe it’s different, more focusing on workplace issues. But one of the things that happens that I see with couples and personal relationships, it’s a real, just something that I want to lift into the light here is that when miscommunication happens, it is incredibly easy to blame the other person for the miscommunication, and I think it’s something that we all kind of instinctively do, because we’re very clear about what our intentions were. 

So therefore, the problem must be on your end, right. And it is very, very, very difficult to create positive changes in communication, or in a relationship with that kind of mindset. And so I really like that you’re talking about this, like theme of personal responsibility and self awareness around communication. And you’ve developed an assessment, essentially, which I took, I will say, to help people gain awareness about their communication styles, and also those of others to be able to make sense of these differences. Without that tendency to blame. Can you say more about the communication styles? Sure, absolutely. You talked a little bit about an expressive style, what are some of the others?

Maryanne: So there’s four styles. Expressive is the largest, the 37% of the population. The next one is called reserved, there’s 25%. We’ve got direct at 22, and then harmonious at 16. So we went out. And the reason I created I went out and did the research was because I had done enough segmentation work in my professional life, and advertising and brand consulting, to know when you look at, some sort of assessment, whether it’s decent or not, I thought, gosh, there’s like, this is not that well, every one of them, I found was intentionally kind of putting you in a box or limiting the choices. And so I thought, I’m going to create something that really allows us to see ourselves and understand what those dimensions of communication are on. 

I had hoped it would come back in quadrants because, you know, we’re used to seeing, two axes that we communicate on. We’re used to assessments that give us our personality, and, you know, we’re like this, we’re not like this. And it was, when we did the segmentation, we found it didn’t fall into 25% each quadrant, which is, some of the pieces that I had seen, and we took it and turned it we said, okay, how can we we got four, the four styles came out really clearly. And the way that they are, they’re aligned along three spectrums. 

One’s around assertiveness, so that speaks to, you know, how forcefully do we share our opinions? Do we challenge authority to be addressed tensions? Then there’s collaboration, you know, do we work well with people? Would we rather work alone or with others? How do we build relationships? Do we show interest in the lives of others? And then there’s consideration which, you know, speaks to how do we behave? have, you know, are we critical? Are we supportive? Are we really deliberate in what we say? Or are we kind of just off the cuff spontaneous. So there’s a number of dimensions. 

And what they did was they, they created this kind of constellation of exceptional traits that the style holds. And what makes these people similar and dissimilar from other styles. So when you look at expressives, they’re kind of archetype is there are the most outgoing, most assertive, talkative, they love to meet people, they care about people on a personal level, they love to lead teams. And I think if you know, think about those people, you can kind of start to picture those people in your life and and we’re, firstly, love to tell jokes, very light hearted, like to tell stories can easily get off track, and then 

Lisa: That’s right

Maryanne: you know, you ever reserved, which, you know, they really like to keep things on a professional level, they don’t want you to ask a lot of personal questions. And they like to have influence, but they don’t want to leave, they are the kind of quintessential team player. And then you have direct, and they’re like, for communities who have communication, their need is, you know, exchange of information driven towards results. I am not looking to build a lot of friendships here at work, like, it’s fine if I do, but I’m here to advance things and feel that level of fulfillment through the quality of my work. And they have no need for small talk or stories. In fact, it will bother them, if you have too much of that. 

Then you have harmonious and they’re supportive, they are peacekeepers, they’re the glue that holds the teams together. They’re very agreeable, you know, and each of those of you start to think about how they like to interact, you can start to kind of see how their areas where some styles, you know, overlap and have some similarities, and how each of them plays a role and how there’s also tension that can come up between the styles.

Lisa: Absolutely. You know what, and I don’t know if you’re familiar with this research or not, but Dr. Helen Fisher, who I’m a huge fan of her work, she is a evolutionary biologist, I want to say anthropologist biologist, and she did some research around very fundamental sort of biologically based personality traits that the kind of transcend because a lot of personality traits can be culture bound to some degree, right? 

And she came up with four dimensions as well that really correlate with what you’re talking about with your communication dimensions. Hers were let’s see if I can remember now, a director, also a nurturer. So I think that very directive versus the really, the harmonious. And then she also had two other quadrants. And again, people, you know, nobody’s just all one thing, we all have a blend, but our other two were, were explorers versus builders. So kind of expressive, creative novelty seeking, versus kind of structure, stability order, kind of seeking. And it’s just so interesting to me how your communication styles really align with with that other. I mean, it’s just an added layer of validity to my ear. That’s just cool.

Maryanne: Yeah, I like that. I can see how those explorers would be the expresses. And the builders would be reserved.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. But for me with with relational work, to be able to help people understand differences from that perspective, creates a lot of empathy and reduces that tendency to blame, because I think it’s just very easy for us to wish very much that other people could be more like us, righ t, as opposed to understanding the different strengths that communication styles or personality styles bring to the table and how to use those differences intentionally for the

greater good, right? 

Maryanne: And I think sometimes we were quick to judge. And we think if people aren’t like us, they’re somehow flawed, because we’re doing pretty good. And so those, you know, style tensions that you see when you start to understand, like, that’s just their need the same way you have a need to make a personal connection. They have none of that. And so, if you want your need to be respected, you also need to respect that that’s their orientation. And when you see it from that place, you just kind of like, oh, okay, now I understand you better versus we got, like, you’re such a jerk, like all they do is push the agenda. And it’s like, that’s their need. 

You find ways to kind of find a middle ground and shift your approach a little bit and flex your style so that you can bridge those style tensions and create better interactions, so that you can put people at ease. And, you know, what’s interesting, the piece that bridges style differences, and, you know, even people who aren’t like us, if there’s a level of trust, if there is a deep level of trust, and we’ve had experiences where, you know, we give them the benefit of the doubt, doesn’t matter if they’re different, we understand and appreciate. And we do not judge them, we just kind of be like, ah, that’s Frank. And we have to be willing to stay open and look at, you know, how can you build trust with all kinds of people, you know, all kinds of styles? And how do you, you know, open up and be vulnerable, and look at your own behavior. Because, you know, on some level, we are always contributing to some, whatever the problem is, we’re complaining about, on some level we’re contributing, we’re promoting it, we’re allowing it, we’re ignoring it, you know, are denying and get exists. 

When you can look at, okay, what could I shift in this equation? And how could that shift in my behavior, create for a better interaction, and so we have to be able to willing to really look at ourselves, and have that level of internal awareness. I think we all need to seek feedback from time to time, because there’s things that we can’t see about ourselves, we live. So within our pattern of behavior, often for decades, that what’s readily apparent to others, is invisible to us.

If we’re courageous enough to go ask people for some feedback, and you know, it helps to give them you know, a few things to give you feedback on because not everybody is comfortable, giving someone honest input. So if you said, you know, like, hey, you know, what, I’d love to know, like, what do you think I’m doing really well, when I communicate? And and where could I do better? And if there was one thing that would allow me to, you know, work better with our team, what would that be, because I’d like to keep improving. And that gives people a structure for input. I mean, otherwise, you know, at work, you get it in your, you know, performance reviews, which, you know, oftentimes are annual. And the other piece, which is interesting is we get that feedback all the time at home, but we don’t really listen to it

Lisa: because it happens with a fight. Unsolicited feedback is very direct, and it’s easy to

return at a time. 

Maryanne: Or at a time, when you’re not, you know, you’re not open to it, or it’s just too quick, you know, because I remember, you know, I’m an expressive as well. And we would leave, you know, like a dinner or something, my husband like, Oh, my God, you’ve gone to let other people talk. And I’d be like, I didn’t even realized because expressives love to talk that they can dominate and when there’s self awareness or excitement, if your self awareness is gone, or you’re so excited about something, you can dominate without knowing. And part of it too, is we get validation that some people love for you to carry the conversation, you know, because then they can just sit back. So like, I do not want to engage right now. 

When we’re open to hearing it, and when we learn to deliver that information, when someone’s receptive. I know I found with my kids, you know, I would be up early. And so by the time they got up, I had already, you know, processed all my information, I was ready to like, hit the ground running. And I was like, here are three things I want to tell you that I’ve been thinking about. They’re like, I just got, could you give me a minute? And so I’ve learned, like, you know, wait till later in the day, even though I wanted to get it off my, you know, Conversation List. If you can wait for that right moment, and find the opening. And so much of it is in tone and trust, like you can have any conversation and deliver any kind of information if there is that level of trust. And the more you are thoughtful about how you say something, you know, and say it from an open heart. You know, people are more receptive than you can imagine.

Lisa: Yeah, yeah, I can so relate to what you’re saying to just personally, I am also a morning person. And so by the time everybody’s like, staggering out of their bedrooms, I am on like, my third cup of coffee and I’m like, Hey, everybody. I’m like, Okay, we need to have this conversation later. And so but I love that is really taking feedback. And I think what I’m hearing you say is, is actively soliciting feedback, like understanding that there are always differences and that it’s really vital to understand in emotionally safe ways, you know, constructive feedback, how you are being experienced by others, because it’s very easy to have blind spots in communication and if you’re not well Maybe that’s actually a question rather than a statement. I mean, one strategy for illuminating some of those blind spots is soliciting feedback. But what are other clues that you may be coming across differently? or less positively, let’s say, then you intend or would hope to be received? Because he kept, I think every word.

Maryanne: yeah, it happens. You can’t ask everyone. And you know, you don’t want to sleep feedback from you know, to, you want to go to someone that you know, will give you honest good input, the more you understand yourself, and understand others, so to that point of emotional intelligence, you can watch for the dynamics to see how people are reacting, and you can start to pick up on subtle cues, if we can come into a conversation where we aren’t emotionally charged, where we have kind of cleared out our mental chatter and can be really presence. 

There are actually, they’ve shown us there are now through quantum physics fields of information that we pick up on all the time. And that’s that, you know, level of gut instinct, or you just have some sort of intuition, like I’m sensing, something’s off, when you are present in a conversation, you’re going to hear that you’re going to hear a shift in someone’s tone, you’re going to feel something’s off. So I think we’ve all had those times where, you know, people are saying just the right words, and just the right tone. And you’re like, oh, something’s off here. Like, I don’t trust them. Like, I feel like there’s something else at work. 

Whenever we can pay attention to how we’re communicating, you were sending what you were saying earlier, we’re broadcasting and receiving all the time, through these energy fields. And through our mirror neurons, or all of our systems, we have an empathy circuit in our brain that helps us feel what other people are feeling. And whenever we start to learn how to listen on those subtle layers, we’ll start to understand, you know, how we’re coming across. And the more that we understand kind of what our opportunities for projection are, we can watch for those. Because we it’s easy to project as well and misinterpret information. 

You have to really get to know yourself. And I think that’s the biggest opportunity for growth for people is get to know yourself question your motivations, pay attention to what your motivations are, what are your true intentions, and the higher the intention you hold, the better the conversation goes. And so if your conversation is the intention to like, I want to share this idea, I want to, you know, open people’s perspective to something versus like, I want them to adapt by an idea. And I want to drive this home. And if we held that idea, even in our conversations at home, like how do you open up a conversation in a way that allows for discussion, versus directing it towards an outcome?

Lisa: Yeah, well, this is getting into very interesting and there are so many complexities here if it’s okay, if we unpack some of these, because there’s this really powerful intersection between your intention and aspects of communication that you have conscious control over. And certainly a lot of research to support the subconscious transmission and receiving of people it feels like energy and just for our listeners, there is a lot of research to support the contagion of emotions, and also the very realness and power of parts of our brains that are not fully within our consciousness, for better and for worse, because sometimes the systems are accurate and sources of helpful information. 

There are also inaccuracies and assumptions that can be easily made about especially other people or social interactions at a subconscious level, that are very much products of our own life experiences, our expectations, the cultures of our families of origin even and so there’s this interesting interplay between how to get accurate information about how you tend to be perceived by others, while also leaving space for the recognition that other people also are carrying their own set of filters and so may have reactions to us sometimes, no matter what we do can certainly increase the odds sometimes but to like there are limitations of What we’re responsible for versus what somebody else is responsible for. And so there’s, there’s just a lot of intersectionality here, I think is the word that kids are using these days.

Maryanne: Communication is complex, and people are complex. And what I would say to the fact that you cannot control how someone receives what you’re saying, you know, in its entirety, what you can do is go into a conversation with the highest of intentions with the most openness, and be as intentional as you can, and the way you deliver the information and people will feel your genuine, when you’re genuine people feel it, they may still get triggered, you cannot be responsible for the fact someone gets triggered. And if you get triggered, that’s on you. Like when we have those emotional responses, that’s our issue coming to the surface. 

What they’ve just done is, you know, ignited it with something that is almost always unintentional. And that’s whenever we want to look at because, if you ever find yourself saying things like, you know, you made me feel this way. Now, what makes you feel anything, you’re feeling it. So you want to look at, okay, what is driving that what is underneath that. So you, the best we can do is to increase our level of self awareness and stay attuned to what other people are receiving it. And be as intentional as we can, whenever we’re having the conversation and a watch that we don’t get triggered and get reactive. 

Sometimes you just have to be willing to walk away and be like, you know what, let’s pick this conversation up later and, and come back around. And then and if you have some level of trust with them to say, you know, like, I’m not sure what happened there. But my intention was to share this piece of information to have this level of conversation. And it seemed like maybe, you know, something that like you were hearing it in a different way, can you help me understand, you know, what you were what’s going on? If if you know them? Well, you could say in the moment, like something going on, you know, like, I’m not really understanding where this conversation is going. And sometimes you wait for that right moment. 

If someone’s emotions are heightened, they’re not going to be able to hear you as clearly as if they’ve had a little time to process it. And, you know, some people times people just can’t see the issue within themselves. Yeah. And there’s nothing you can do about that, you know, you just try to behave at the highest level of integrity and consciousness that you can,

Lisa: Certainly. Well, you can send them this podcast to listen to, is what they that you could do. But, but I love what you’re saying, though, that really at the core, because there are different aspects of communication there, there are words, but there is also, you know, emotional tones that are being conveyed, and that are being received by an emotional part of our brain that is not conscious. And that we are very sensitive to perceiving the intentions of other people that is very adaptive from a biological evolutionary kind of basis. 

What I’m hearing you say, I think, is that one of the keys to really effective communication is actually like making contact with the highest and best part of yourself, like finding noble intentions within yourself that are based on empathy, positive regard for the other person, positive expectations, optimism, a kind of confidence, trust, that when when you’re able to perceive a situation and another person through that lens, that that is what you will sort of be communicating and expressing intentions of goodwill, that will be felt by the other person. And so then the words become much less relevant in some ways. Is that what I’m hearing you say?

Maryanne: Absolutely. I mean, there’s so much research that supports all of it. And I think just even anecdotally, we all know, whenever we’re around someone who comes into a room or whether it’s family or at work, when somebody’s in an upbeat, they feel good, they’re energized or positive like it uplifts you, right our energy fields are are sharing that emotional energy and we absorb it. And the same thing can happen whenever someone you know comes in who’s you know. Always a victim are always complaining or blaming and their energies is like, you just start to feel yourself just weather like, Oh, I’m already feeling my energy drain. And people will talk about it all the time at work, as you know, energy vampires or whatever, you know, I don’t think anyone wants to live in that space intentionally, it’s just, we can get stuck in cycles. 

As we stay in, those emotions can amplify. But what you can do is bring the highest level emotion you can into, you know, a meeting, and you know, we’re all everybody’s gone through something, you know, not every day feels like a 10 out of 10 day. But if we can, you know, show up at least in a neutral space, right, try to show up and, you know, being open, you know, versus critical or judgmental, because that’s going to help you continue to elevate your emotional state, your, you know, optimism, your ability to see, you know, a wider vision of the world. You know, just even through positive psychology, we know that, the more optimistic and open minded we are, you know, we see more our aperture opens. 

And when we get into negativity, we get really narrow and focused, and all we can see is everything that’s going wrong. And that same thing happens when we’re in conversations, look for the best in people, you know, we have a, we have a practice that we do at the dinner table that we’ve done for decades now. And every night, we share highlights, and that’s all we talk, like you only talk about the best parts of your day, because it amplifies it and you had to cut you have to come with something that, you know, went well for you that day, and will always go on and then we it’s you start to build upon it, and then you’re excited for everybody else’s. And when our kids were really little, it was like, there was a rule like, you cannot crap on anybody’s child. Like, everybody gets a tiger paw award, it’s not a big deal. So there’s a few ground rules, but it’s, it reminds us to share and celebrate what’s going well in our lives. Because heavier experiences weigh on us. 

We tend to talk about, you know, the worst part of our day and, and we think about like the conversations that we have at work, or even in our life, the ones that we come home and talk about from work, though are, you know, whether we had a good day or a bad day depends, in large part how our interactions went. And so when we can, you know, do things that raise our level of well being, you know, invest in your sleep, you know, your nutrition, your movement, give yourself that stable foundation, so that you can, you know, kind of show up with more emotional stability and have better interactions. And the more intentional we are about trying to have, you know, better conversations and interactions with people that, you know, we may not enjoy as much the better our life becomes, because that whole piece around finding that level of success at work, which is about our level of our relationships, our ability to build trust, it’s worth it, it’s worth investing in those relationships, and they can radically change. 

There are people that I used to work with, that I didn’t care for at all and never wanted to work for they are now some of my best friends. And in large part, I started to realize, like, Oh, I’m they made me feel insecure on some level. So that was part of why I would project towards them or whatever it is, but relationships can mend, you know, and be built, where it seems like there is, you know, a huge divide. And when we’re willing to look at, you know, kind of our side of the street, and also be intentional about the way we engage. It’s amazing how quickly things can shift. It doesn’t have to take years.

Lisa: No, that really doesn’t. So mindset is key, and also focusing on your energy, both your your intentions, but also even like your physical energy, you you are saying to understand that the way that you are energetically being experienced in an interaction can in itself, change the interaction, and it can change the experience and it can change ultimately the relationship. Can I go into super turbo nerd territory just for one minute because I happen to know that many of the listeners of this podcast really appreciate information and like trustworthy research based information. 

I just want to assure them, that the things that we’re talking about, like you know, the language that we’re using a little bit can can have sort of woowoo connotations. And so one of the things that I actually looked up enough in preparation of our conversation today because I imagined that we were going to be taught Talking about this. Do you mind if I share a little excerpt from an article published in the Harvard Business Review by authored by a couple authors? The primary author is Daniel Goleman. Who is the kind of thought leader around emotional intelligence. Is this okay? Okay. So here’s here’s my Maya, going to hoist hoist my nerd flag. 

Researchers have seen again and again how emotions spread irresistibly, whenever people are near one another as far back as 1981, psychologists, Howard Friedman and Ronald regio, found that even completely nonverbal expressiveness can affect other people. For example, when three strangers that facing one another in silence for a minute or two, the most emotionally expressive of the three transmits his or her mood to the other two without a single word being spoken. The same holds true in the office, boardroom or shop floor. Group members inevitably catch feelings from one another. 

In 2000, the year 2000, Carolyn Martell at New York University and Richard salve vedra at the University of Michigan found that in 70, work teams across diverse industries, people in meetings together ended up sharing moods, both good and bad. With in two hours, one study asked teams of nurses and accountants to monitor their moods over weeks, researchers discovered that their emotions tracked together and that they were largely independent of each team’s shared hassles. Groups, therefore, like individuals ride emotional roller coasters, sharing everything from jealousy to angst to euphoria, a good mood incidentally, spreads most swiftly by the judicious use of humor.

 I just wanted to share that for anybody listening to this who may be have their suspicion meter cranked up to 11. Right now that, that, and we you know, there’s evidence of this process to be found in many other disciplines, including attachment theory, there is a physiological impact of called co regulation when it comes to intimate partnerships. And so I just wanted to share that for the benefit of our listeners to be receptive to the ideas that we’re talking about. Because, again, I think it can be so easy to be defensive, and not fully accept responsibility for how we are feeling internally for our own mindset, and how that is impacting our relationships, whether we know it or not.

Maryanne: Absolutely. Everything we’re talking about was grounded in science, I sometimes forget, because it’s been around for so long. But if you’re not reading those books with those articles, it can seem out there, but it’s not this is it sounds metaphysical, grounded in science, and especially if we’re really deep in our victim mentality, you know, it’s harder to see because we think life is happening to us. But what we know through all of the sciences, neurosciences, public positive psychology, quantum physics is, life is happening because of us. So we can change the way we show up, and we can change our experience. We are co creators in our life. And I think that’s really empowering.

Lisa: That’s such a great perspective. I love it. I was wondering if we could spend a couple more minutes. Let’s see, let me back up a little bit, because I know that this will be edited. So I’m wondering if we could shift gears just for a minute and talk about some of the strategies that you would recommend our listeners, you know, maybe experiment with in their own lives, either at work or in their relationships, that could help them put some of these into practice and become a more conscious communicator? 

For example, one of the things that you mentioned a couple of times in this conversation is, and I know that we can all relate to this is how much easier it is to have miscommunication or things land the wrong way. When we are under stress. Do you have any strategies or bits of advice that people could use if they’re in a stressful situation, either at work? Or maybe they are feeling triggered by something that their partner said or dead? What do you advise?

Maryanne: Well, the more you understand your style, you’ll start to recognize when you’re slipping into your style under stress. So for example, an expressive will start to push, they might use sarcasm, and you can feel the force that comes they’re very assertive, a reserved person might start to withdraw. You know, they will put their head down and do their work or they will just shut down and become more guarded and very transactional. So if you reason I want to just take you through what these behaviors look like as we often start to recognize the B havior a direct person will become, they will steamroll over people and push their agenda as hard as they need to to have things move. And they’re extremely inflexible, and a harmonious person will often just completely shut down, they will try to escape the room or get out of the conversation, they will go into flight or freeze.

Lisa: Which can also be passive aggressive.

Maryanne: Well, sarcasm is that most of us? Yeah, it is, we all have passive aggressive behavior. You know, sarcasm is passive aggressive. And I don’t think we think of it that way. It’s like, oh, it’s humorous like, No, yours, you’re couching something in humor that you really have an issue with. And every one of them is a passive aggressive behavior. You know, if if someone who’s reserved starts to withdraw, and you know, shuts down and becomes even more guarded or transactional, that’s passive aggressive, instead of saying, like, hey, you know, I’m feeling under stress, you know, I need some space and time, or I’m really feeling the pressure of this deadline, could we please have a conversation about how to get this done by five o’clock, because it’s 330, that we stopped the other conversations. 

So the first piece is become aware of how you show up, and also learn to recognize how other people’s styles are under stress. And sometimes, you know, cut them a break, you know, we all experienced times where we’re like, Could you please just go along with me on this, and, and go, like, you know, we can, we don’t, you don’t want to operate in that space, where you’re flexing to someone’s needs completely all the time. But sometimes you just help them out, you know, give them the benefit of the doubt, you know, we all, you never know what someone’s going through in their lives. And most people have a lot going on in their private lives. 

I mean, I’ve been doing a lot of executive coaching, and coaching of teams, and you know, if there’s something going on with your child, and there’s a lot of kids who are going through a lot of mental health issues, you know, if there’s something going on with your parents, if you are under financial strain, it comes out sideways, sometimes we do not compartmentalize our lives, who we are as who we are, and we can want to think that, you know, we’re going to work and now I’m going to be in my work persona. But that genie is well out of the bottle after COVID. And we could see into each other’s homes and see the realities of people’s lives. And, you know, see the child peek their head in the door, and you start to have more empathy for people. So I would encourage you to one, you know, recognize your own style, and just dress, you know, cut people a break from time to time, do whatever you can to raise your own level of well being. 

There are so many pieces that we have become conditioned to do that we don’t recognize, you know, endless scrolling on social media is not good for your mental health. And it is a huge waste of time. You know, it might be how you stay connected, but not for hours on end, if you start to in any way feel like you’re comparing yourself to other people get off of it. Comparison is the thief of joy. We trade off sleep for binging, you know, if you don’t have enough sleep, you know, you’re not going to show up with more the most resilience you have, or you could have. And, you know, we forget that we can shift our emotional state, you know, five minutes of walking can you know outside and can just shift our mindset, but we value you know, sending another email or something far more than five minutes of, you know, taking a minute to restore. 

And it can be these small renewal breaks that can help us. And the other piece I would look at is when you are under stress, how can you break out of that cycle. I don’t think most people understand that every emotion has a beginning, a middle and an end, we get stuck in the middle. And there are ways the fastest way to snap out of this and there’s loads of research on on how to do this is that we want to get up and move your body that will start we’re trying to signal to the sympathetic nervous system, the parasympathetic nervous system like shut down and and just come back into a calm state. We want to get back into what’s called homeostasis, where we can feel centered where we can feel grounded, two or three minutes of moving your body. You can do jumping jacks, you can go for a walk, you can climb up and down stairs. 

Anything that is around movement will do it. There are loads of breath techniques that can bring us back into a calm state. We have far more agency than we use to raise our love wellbeing and reduce our stress. And as we’ve, you know, more people are working hybrid, one of the things is I’ve have clients that what we’ll do is we’ll start to create virtual commutes on those days. So it’s like, you need to go do something for 10 minutes at the beginning of your day and 10 minutes at the end of your day to signal the end, signal the beginning and transition in, we used to use our commutes for that. And now we’re missing that time and we don’t shut down, we just allow work to spill over into our life, you know, as simple as like changing your sweater. 

If you’re in cozy clothes all day, change it, like it’s signals I’ve done working and creating a boundary, and I’m leaving that behind, and then go do something you enjoy. I think we forget to refill our reservoir, and do things that bring us happiness, you know, a small things that can be you know, putting out of your playlist while you’re making dinner, you know, going for a walk with a friend, we need to reinvest in our energy life cannot be a series of endless responsibilities, you know, where us all down and tip us in distress.

Lisa: Absolutely. But and having a direct correlation on the quality of your communication and your relationships that it may not, on the surface seem directly related. You know, we’re not talking about communication techniques, we’re talking about self management, emotional wellness, self care, that is the foundation of communication at the level that we’ve been talking about today. Now, if I may, if this is okay, I would love to lob a listener question into our conversation. And I’m going to paraphrase this because I get some variation of this question several times a week, sometimes the various channels. But the the question may be because, you know, communication issues are so prevalent in personal relationships. Dr. Lisa, I love my partner, so much, so many things about our relationship are fantastic. And you know, I religiously, listen to your podcasts about communication, and you know, the importance of emotional safety, and how to help your partner feel understood and validated. And I’ve been working really hard to, you know, do this on my side. And my partner communicates with me in a tone that I don’t like, how do I get them to understand their tone? And how it’s impacting me? And how do I get them to change it? So they helped me feel better than I do right now, in our communication? But do you have any thoughts about that, and I know, that’s a big one. And we could probably address it from different angles. 

Maryanne: Well, there’s always that piece of, we can’t change anyone else. But what we can do is make them aware of how it makes you feel. And I have had that experience with, you know, whether it’s my child or my husband, and I will try to do it in a light hearted way, like, do we really got to use that tone, or that or that tone starts to, you know, make it difficult for me to hear you, you know, that tone is creating this emotion and me so doesn’t like you’re creating, you’re making me feel this way, we’re just like, I’m starting to feel resistance. And, you know, the pieces, we can only take care of RSI that straight, you know, the other person has to be open to understanding, you know, what that’s creating for you. 

So if you can say in the, you know, most open, heart centered way, you know, whenever we get into this space, I start to shut down or I get angry, or I get judgmental, and I don’t want to be that way, you know how, you know, Would you be open to, you know, just kind of checking your tone sometimes because I’m trying to stay, you know, in this space where our relationship is, you know, on this really great level of trust, and I feel we both feel safe. And the reality is sometimes people aren’t going to change, you know, until they’re ready. Nobody changes until they’re ready or follows for as I was saying, you know, we’re either so inspired, that we want to change or we’re in so much pain that we decide to change, right. 

And I think you do the best you can do whatever is a tone issue is just to bring it to their awareness in a way that they can be receptive to, without tone in your own voice. Right, just hold that attention of that and you know, watch because what we were saying earlier is like we communicate from our level of well being, so it could be that they’re under a lot of stress. Most people don’t recognize their tone when they’re under stress. So you might want to just see how could you bring some empathy to that? How could you bring that emotional intelligence to go? Okay, well, I wonder, wonder what’s going on with them? If you can approach it with curiosity, to see, you know, like, I wonder why that tone is coming out? I’ll often use two questions. 

One is like, I always felt like, I wonder why that is happening. Like, I wonder why this is happening again. And the other is like, isn’t it interesting that every time we’re in this situation, this is where we get to. So if you if you can stay curious, stay open minded, and watch for judgment, like people feel your judgment the same way they feel your intention. So, you know, it’s hard. 

It’s hard to know, without the specifics of that situation, but a lot of people you know, are, are really unaware of their tone. Totally. And sometimes I’ll catch my own tone. And I’ll be like, Wow, that came out. Oh, yeah. came out way different than I was bad tone. I’ll go oh, God, that sounds like there’s a lot of tone in there. I just want to apologize. I did not mean it to be, you know, that way, you know, this other situation is kind of spilling over. So I’ll apologize. And I think that creates, you know, model the behavior you want to see. Yeah, it was always a great idea.

Lisa: That’s fantastic advice. I love that. And so I’m hearing authentic and courageous communication, that is you at your best self, you know, to be curious, to be compassionate. And also to be clear about what’s what’s going on for you without blinking, that’s not easy to do, you know, especially if you’re feeling triggered, but really to have productive conversations about about the experience that could lead to growth and change. Because as you say, there could be a lot of just unconsciousness, particularly if somebody is behaving in a way that is to them business as usual, based on what they learned about how to communicate and how to be in their family of origin experiences. And that their that can be a path to growth. 

And also, I liked what you said about recognizing sometimes the limits of what is possible to change. You know, there’s a marriage and family therapist researcher, Dr. John Gottman, who talks a lot about the the prevalence of what he calls, unsolvable problems that really just are what they are. And that there’s a path forward to have a beautiful relationship, whether or not those are present. I know, personally. 

So I have now been married for I can’t even believe it’s been this long, but 26 years. And my husband, we joke about it. Now, we did not joke about it in the 90s. But now we can joke about it is a passionate man that he tends to communicate in a way that can be more like forceful and others angry Tyler, I’m like an app. But you know, what I’ve come to recognize is just like his sort of process, like he gets elevator and he stops around rants for a little while, and then it comes back down. And we can have a reasonable conversation. 

And like, just, I think understanding his communication style, like what you were talking about earlier, and how that’s different from my natural way of being, I don’t have the same like emotional triggers anymore. So he can still have his tone and have his process. But I think having a different narrative, like it has a much different impact on me. So whereas you know, 20 years ago, it was quite upsetting, it is no longer significant at all. Well, sometimes it’s still significant. Sometimes I’ll be like, okay, and we’re done, we’re gonna come back to this, but but, you know, like, you can work with it, I think from from both sides. And so I think all the advice that you share that day, today has been really helpful in achieving that, you know, that the balance between trying to create positive change versus sort of self expansion, you know, and what, what you can understand differently with empathy, right? Yeah.

Maryanne: Sometimes what I hear you’re saying was, like, accept people, yes, that, that that’s who they are. If it’s not going to, it’s not going to destroy your relationship. You know, my husband and I, it’s interesting, because our your what you may find is, your communication style at work is different than the way you communicate at home. He is direct at work, and he is harmonious at home, and we’ve been married 31 years. And he is a natural Peacemaker. Like, don’t bring that up, like, let’s just let it ride and I’m expressive at work and expressive. And I’m like, that’s an issue. We need to surface it. Like, let’s just address it and get it resolved. And he’s like, Oh, please don’t bring this up. And so, you know, sometimes, we’re like, you know, you are too harmonious. You know, like, you know, sometimes you do need to address the issue and sometimes you don’t, you know, so you kind of learn You know, to accept people in the in the way they behave, you know, because it would make me crazy that he would avoid, you know, whether it was topics with his family or, you know, dealing with something that created tension, because I would be more of a mind of, well, let’s just have a conversation about it. 

Lisa: It’s so interesting about this, because if there was like a belligerent for sport category, that’s what my husband could be in. Sometimes I just like, you know, just the pros and cons of different different styles and ways of communicating because I could see how, you know, there would be difficulty sometimes of like, a super harmonious person versus, you know, somebody who can come across as a little more abrasive, and my, he’s incredibly sweet, warm, kind, loving person, you know, but just like that, that communication style that gets everybody’s a mixed bag, is what I’m hearing you say, and there’s pros and cons of so to sort of, glorify or idealize you know, one communication style over another, there is light and dark in all things, right. And so that’s important too. 

Maryanne: There’s room for growth for all of us. And we do operate in all of those styles, we will all have an opportunity in our life to be harmonious, where it’s like, Okay, I’m gonna be the one that keeps the pace because everyone, no one else here is paying attention to you know, and so we do kind of slip in and out of those different styles, we tend to have places where we feel most at home and different situations, because for me, my husband’s so direct at work, he’s a consultant, and his job is to be dry. But when he comes home, he’s like, okay, then, like, I’m just gonna sit back, and I’m just gonna let things ride. 

We know people are complex, communication is complex. And the more aware we are of, you know, how we’re feeling how we show up, what we’re saying what our tone is, all all those dimensions of communication, the easier it is to, you know, have great interactions and to feel, you know, much more, you know, connected to the people we love and to feel happy at the end of the day. So, you know, there’s a lot that we can do, to kind of make these little kind of subtle shifts, and in our behavior to make things easier.

Lisa: Well, Maryann, this has been such an interesting conversation, and I’m feeling so grateful right now, just for you sharing your wisdom and your guidance with our listeners today. It’s been very informative and interesting, I’ve enjoyed our conversation, thank you.

Maryanne: I have as well, I’m really, you know, grateful to, you know, come on, and have a chance to speak with your listeners. And I really appreciate all that you’re doing in the world to you know, help relationships, strengthen and help people, you know, find that love and happiness in their lives.

Lisa: Thank you so much. And, and this has been fun. And so, um, if people wanted to learn more about you, or your work, or your consulting services or your book, where would they go to find more about you or take take your communication style quiz that you have available for free on the front page of your website? I think it’s on the front page. I found it easily when I went to your website. Okay.

Maryanne: Yeah. So you can either go, the title of the book is the elevated communicator, and so you can go to the elevated communicator.com Otherwise, it’s conscious stash company.com Both of them will take you there. And you know, you can can learn more about yourself through this style assessment, you get a little glimpse into your style. You can you can take it for free and have your teams take it for free or your family members it’s so as a good thing to have, you know, an understanding of what other people’s needs are. And there you can find, you know, other information about the consulting and things that I do so yeah, thank you for opening that door.

Lisa: Yeah. Wonderful. Well, thanks again for your time today. This has been a lovely conversation. We’ll have to do it again sometime. Sounds good. Take care.