Love Your Body

[Intro song: Thaw by Bnny]

Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby: This is Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby, and you’re listening to The Love, Happiness, and Success Podcast. The band is Bnny with the song Thaw. It’s a haunting song with a raw message, and that is intentional because we’re going there today. Today, we’re talking about you and your relationship with your body. 

It can be hard to love your body. How do you feel about your body? If you’re like a lot of people, especially women, you don’t like what you see in the mirror. You wish your body looked different, and a lot of people, especially women, get tricked into believing that if only you could attain this physical ideal of beauty that is unrealistic for like 99.999% of all humans. But if you could, then finally, you would get the love, the happiness, and success that you always wanted. 

This is a trap. We need to talk about it. Too many of us are socialized into basing our worth on the way we look. We spend way too much time thinking about how we can force our body to be different and get super vigilant about what we’re eating or weighing ourselves. Or even taking this “healthy lifestyle” to an extreme that is not actually good for anyone, especially mentally and emotionally or physically, for that matter. 

If any of what I’m saying is feeling familiar and on point for you, I want you to get ready for a breath of fresh air. Today, I’m so pleased to be visiting with my colleague here at Growing Self, Stephanie O. She is a marriage and family therapist but she also has a real passion for helping people, especially women, liberate themselves from these really destructive and toxic ideas about self-worth, and particularly, self-worth based on the way you should look. 

Stephanie is here today to talk with us about how to practice health at any size, how to shift away from self-hatred and towards self-acceptance, and maybe even into loving your body the way it deserves to be loved. Thank you, Stephanie, for being here with me today. 

Stephanie: Thank you so much, Lisa, for having me. I’m really excited to talk about this and share this with people and curious what other people think and have to say as well. 

Stephanie’s Journey to Health at Every Size

Dr. Lisa: Yes. Well, we’re going to have a good talk, and I’m just happy to be here because I like talking to you anyway. This is a particularly important topic because I think so many people, and I do not want to gender stereotype because I think a lot of different people struggle with this, feel a lot of shame, anxiety, discomfort around their body, the way their body looks, lots of messages like what kind of body they should have, their body is different. 

Then, we also get these messages like love your body, and that’s pretty much when people just feel like laying down and taking a very long nap. 

Stephanie: Yeah, and I think the moral of that is that we spend way too much time thinking about our bodies in general, whether it’s complete shame and self-hate of our bodies to just wanting to change it in some way, or wishing that it was different, or even more passive thoughts throughout the day like, “Should I or shouldn’t I eat this? Or should I or shouldn’t I look differently?” It just takes up way too much of our time and our brain power. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. You’ve been working with clients around this for a while. Can I ask you? I’m curious to know. How did you get interested in this, I think, fascinating subset of our profession? 

Stephanie: Yeah, so I think I can pin it back to actually when I was 18. I was a freshman in college, I was in Psych 101, and we were learning about eating disorders. I saw the diagnostic criteria for anorexia. It was restricting calorie intake, dissatisfied with the way that you look, fear of becoming fat. I was like, “Wait, isn’t that everybody?” 

I hadn’t really known any woman to not possess some of those characteristics, including me. I thought, “Well, this is a classified mental illness, so there’s got to be more to the story than this, that it gives so many people experiences.” I just kind of filed it away in the back of my mind until I went to grad school and thought, “Oh, maybe I’ll work with people with eating disorders. That could be quite interesting.” 

I got exposed to this concept of Health at Every Size, which some people will be familiar with. It’s basically an entirely new way of thinking about health, and size, and body acceptance, and the way that we think about weight and health in our society. It made so much sense to me, and I just went from there. I thought, “How can I incorporate this as a marriage and family therapist? How could I not perpetuate weight and size stigma, but instead, continue to challenge it since this is such a common presenting problem as a therapist? A lot of people come seeking help with weight, and size, and body image issues.” 

Why Do I Hate My Body?

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well it impacts so many different parts of life too and relationships and sexuality, there are so many different things attached. I’m wondering, for somebody listening to this who’s like, “I’m really glad I’m listening to this podcast right now. I’m ready to learn,” what are some things that you would imagine might be true for them that maybe you’ve heard from some of your clients previously around? What starts to happen when people are thinking about their bodies a lot? 

Stephanie: Well, I think, this day and age, it can actually be quite sneaky. I think before maybe when we were growing up, it was a lot more overt like, “Oh, I wish I had thinner legs, or bigger boobs, or a flatter stomach.” Now, I think it can sneak in a variety of ways because a lot of us would like to consider ourselves very… We know it’s not cool anymore to hate your body, right? Body acceptance is in. 

I think that sometimes it sneaks in. It starts out as a pursuit of health. “I want to be healthier,” and then, you start thinking like, “Okay. Well, I want to be healthier. I’ve got to burn more calories.” It just kind of spirals from there, right? Underneath it, the goal underneath is really to actually be thinner because we equate so much of health and size together, right? 

I think that it can sneak in in a bunch of different ways. I think with all of the images that we’re exposed to online in terms of clean and healthy eating, and vegan diets, and gluten-free diets, and things like that, which can be really helpful for people and can be really important for people, can also turn into starting to obsess a little bit too much about what we’re eating and how we’re eating. 

Dr. Lisa: Like good food, bad food. That kind of thing. 

Stephanie: The other thing I think people will be familiar with is just conflating health and morality, right? Like what you were just saying, “I’m a good person because I keep healthy,” or “I’m a bad person because I didn’t exercise today,” or even judging that in others. I think, too, not just oneself but making judgments on other people. 

I think, to just having this sense, and this is for all of my clients, I think, having this sense that there’s a magical day in the future where everything is going to be exactly the way that they want it, “I’m going to be the exact weight that I want. My life is going to be the exact way that I want.” That day does not exist, first of all. 

Dr. Lisa: Do you have to say it out loud? Come on! No, I’m just kidding. It’s like, “When I attain this thing, then all these other good things will happen.” 

Stephanie: “When I’m this weight, I will have the partner that I want. I’ll be able to wear the clothes I want. I’ll be happy.” My favorite quote from one of my favorite authors, Cheri Huber, who’s a Buddhist writer, she says, “That day does not exist, and it only exists in your mind. Its reason is to torture you.” Right? 

Dr. Lisa: What an awesome quote.

Stephanie: I won’t talk about solutions yet, but I feel like that day does exist in so many people’s minds. It prevents us from accepting who we are now, living the life we want now because we think, “Oh, one day, I’ll be this way.” 

I think another thing too is thinking that “At one point, when I was a different weight, or when I looked differently, I was happy.” I think that’s a big myth that people carry with them. I have my clients find a picture of themselves at a time when they thought, “Okay, I like the way I am and this picture.” I have them look at the picture, and I say, “Well, were you happy, and were you pleased with your body at that point?” 

Most everyone always says, “I wasn’t really happy then either. I also hated my body then, even though I’m looking back at it now, and I think I look good now looking back on it. But at the time, I still was so self-critical and still wasn’t happy and comfortable with my body at that point.” I think those are things that most people can relate to. 

The Path to Radical Self-Acceptance

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, and that’s huge. This is just so interesting. It’s like there’s this, I don’t know, maybe it’s conscious, maybe it’s subconscious, this very powerful association. That “I need to make my body look a certain way or become this…” There’s character, and morals, and virtue all tied up in it. “And if only I can do these things, then all these doors will open. I will feel good, and people will like me. I will feel loved. I will feel confident. All of these things.” 

This makes a lot of sense to me. This turns into almost this motivation to really being focused on your body because it’s a vehicle. It’s sort of like a symbol for all of these other things. That if we could only torture it into submission.

Stephanie: Yeah, it’s the one you can only control, which you really can’t that much. But we think we can. I think it’s important for people to realize too that it’s not really their fault if they think this way, right? We think this way, it’s not a personal problem. It’s a larger societal problem that was really put on us by unrealistic expectations by the beauty industry, by so many different things we were exposed to. Then, we continue to perpetuate it. 

There are estimates but I think 85% of women are dissatisfied with their bodies, and I’m sure it’s more. I haven’t really met somebody in my life that hasn’t, at one point, brought up some type of dissatisfaction with the way that they look. It’s very pervasive. 

Dr. Lisa: Well, can we just talk a little bit more? You mentioned, what I heard in there is we’re taught to believe these things about ourselves that aren’t true, and you just kind of alluded to culture. If you had to articulate what you think women and men are taught, and sometimes it’s about men and their own bodies. I think that men are also taught about women’s bodies and what that is. How would you articulate the messages that we inherit from these larger systems and take on board sometimes without even realizing it? 

Stephanie: I think the messages are, “You better be a ‘normal’ weight, and if you’re not, then you sure as heck better be trying to achieve a normal weight. It’s not okay to just be complacent or be okay with the way you look. You need to be trying to achieve that norm.” I think that’s broad enough to apply to men and women.

Dr. Lisa: If you don’t look like this fairly unattainable representation of physical humanity, which is hard, you need to feel bad about that and guilty and be working really hard to make that be different, or you’re a bad person. 

Stephanie: Yes. Yeah. Lindy West, who’s a famous fat activist says, “Okay, you’re fat, but you better be a fat person that’s trying to be thin. That’s sort of like okay, but it’s not okay to just be okay with it.” 

Dr. Lisa: Wow, but I bet you have a different idea that maybe it is okay. 

Stephanie: I do. 

Dr. Lisa: Tell me more about that part. What’s the alternate? Well, I shouldn’t say because I love doing these podcasts and kind of talking about ideas and things that would be helpful for people, but I always feel so cautious and feel myself saying this over and over again. 

There is a process. There is an arc of growth from coming in and talking with somebody like Stephanie, and that’s where you are. It’s like with these messages and these things still very true and that there is a process that builds over time to be able to incorporate different ideas and stories. 

That’s what I’m asking you about, is different ideas and stories. But my disclaimer is that it takes a while to get there. Because it’s like another thing for people to judge themselves about, right? If they’re like, “Stephanie dropped some great ideas.” Like, “Here’s a better way to think,” and you’re like, “I can’t do that yet. I just want to make that.” 

Stephanie: …and the shame cycle is just… 

Dr. Lisa: Right? Okay, so with that in mind, where do you gently move people towards instead and I’m wondering what the process looks like in your work with clients? 

Stephanie: Well, I tend to start by exposing people to other types of input than the input that they’re getting. I recommend people to more size-acceptance types of media, people they can follow on Instagram, or podcasts that they can listen to, or TV shows that they can even watch. That’s my first approach to it because if we do this work, and we continue to just see all the same input all the time, it’s almost impossible to challenge that. 

Then, the other thing I do, which feels pretty safe to people, is work on the way that they view others first, challenging societal norms around this, so questioning things. I always tell people, “Just start to pay attention to how many of your conversations with your friends are around size and weight, positive or negative,” because I’m pretty radical. I don’t think we should compliment each other on our bodies either, but just how much value is put on the way someone looks, your conversations with your family. 

People are pretty surprised to just slow down that awareness and realize, “Oh, it’s a lot.” It’s a lot. We talk about our looks a lot. The other thing I slide in is starting to understand that the relationship between health and size is not what we think it is. We think fat is unhealthy, thin is healthy. We have to start understanding that that has been fed to us over a long period of time, and it’s not the whole story. There’s science, there’s research to back this up as well. It’s not just an opinion, right? 

Getting people to start to deconstruct the messages that we’ve been given and how true they actually are can give people, give all of us a sense of purpose in terms of “Oh, I’m going to challenge this. I’m not just going to believe what I’ve been told about my weight and size. I went to the doctor, and the doctor said I was overweight. That doesn’t feel like… I don’t understand. How could that be?” Right? And not just accepting that right away and understanding that there’s a bigger story around all sorts of things, and I don’t know how much we want to get into it but that there’s more to it than that, and we can really challenge it. 

One of my clients was saying that she complimented a friend and said, “Oh, you’re looking so thin,” and the friend was like, “I actually got diagnosed with cancer a year ago, and I’m sick.” That was her wake-up call. “Oh my God, I was just assuming that this was a positive thing. She had lost weight but she was sick.” Things like that that we can work on, just rethinking our common narrative can be really liberating for people because it’s harder to just turn inward and then live by that. But it’s easier to start questioning society itself, which is where the problem comes from anyway. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, I could see that. It feels helpful and, in some ways, easier to see that narrative and be able to challenge it around “Wow, I am complimenting people on their looks, assuming positive things about others by virtue of the way they look that may or may not be true,” and just really being exposed to different ideas, different kinds of information that shape our perceptions of reality. 

How to Accept Your Body

Stephanie: Absolutely. Some other things to start thinking about in terms of change, I’m really interested in people not wasting any more of their lives, in general, on whatever the thing it is, that thing they have, maybe. We waste an awful lot of our time on this. I know I don’t want to be on my deathbed thinking about how I wasted time about my weight or the way I looked and things like that. Finding that reason why you want to start changing your thinking is really important for a lot of my clients. 

For some people, it’s like, “I want to be able to look in the mirror again,” or for some people, it’s “I want to stop obsessing. I want to stop counting calories and weighing myself all the time. It’s exhausting.” By the way, that’s another thing you can do, is get rid of your scale immediately. There’s no reason why we need to have scales in our house. I tell people they can bury it in the backyard because you can always dig it back up again if you feel like you need it. But I do have clients that have literally buried their scales because it doesn’t need to be there. 

It’s a question, “Why is that there? Why am I tracking every pound?” Really questioning how much time is this taking. In that vein, I think working on this idea of body neutrality can be really powerful for people. “I’m not going to love my body; I’m not going to hate it. I’m just going to accept. I’m going to look in the mirror and be like, ‘Okay, this is what I look like.'” And trying not to value it at all in terms of “I look great, or I look fat, or I look thin, or there’s a bulge here or whatever.” Just acknowledging it as a fact almost like, “This is what I look like.” People could start there themselves. That could be a really interesting process as well. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, and this idea that you need to jump into this, “I love and appreciate my body exactly as it is.” It feels like too big of a step and just to experiment with “This is my body.” You’re almost describing it as like a very mindful way without interpretation, or judgment, or values. It is just what it is.

Stephanie: This is extremely scary for people. That isn’t easy. When we have a belief system over time that tells us, “No, if I do that, I’m going to let myself slip. I need to constantly be pushing myself, and I can’t let go. I can’t let myself slip. That’s a really scary thing because if I’m okay with my body, then what if I get fat? What if I gain weight?” for some people, that fear is all-encompassing. 

Dr. Lisa: What do you do with that? “Stephanie, I can’t. If I don’t hate myself, if I don’t judge myself, if I don’t yell at myself every time I look in the mirror, then I’m going to stop trying, and then I will be fat and what does that mean?” 

Stephanie: What would happen if you were fat? What would happen if you gained weight? There’s an assumption that fat is bad, right? It’s not necessarily. A lot of people are fighting their body’s natural state quite intensely to prevent it from being at the weight it wants to be. A lot of clients that I have have gotten to a point where they’re like, “What if I just let myself be fat? There’s a good chance that I’m never going to look any different than I have my whole life. So maybe it’s time to just be okay with it, right?” 

I think that weight fluctuation, too, has really been linked to a lot of health problems so the more we diet, and we know diets don’t work. 99% of people gain back all or more of the weight after two years of losing it on a diet, right? They’re unsustainable, and they’re unattainable. So that weight fluctuation can actually be really harmful for health. Pointing things out like that to them can sometimes be useful. But I think questioning like, “Well, okay, so you’d be fat, and? What does that mean to you?” Then, we can pull out some of people’s own stigma and biases. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. What does it mean? Our virtue? Lovability? Worthiness? Yeah. I want to go back to a point that you said. It was actually on my mind earlier today, and I’ll tell you why. You mentioned a minute ago that people are often fighting viciously with themselves to try to not be the weight that their body naturally wants to be. I might have even, was it just last night? It might have been.

Health at Every Size

I came across this article that I read because I was thinking, “I’m going to be talking to Stephanie about body image and weight.” I have to share the link with you. It was a new article from a science journalist who’s going through a lot of the research. The punchline is that there has always been, even among medical professionals, this theory about what creates obesity, but I’ve certainly heard before, which is calories in calories out. 

If you are consuming more calories than you burn, it gets stored as fat. It’s sort of like thermodynamics, right? It sounds very reasonable. That is actually not true and that genetic variations, there have been experiments with mice, that a mouse with a certain genetic imprint, their bodies do different things with insulin production. In experiments, you can actually feed one of these mice half as much as a sort of standard-issue mouse diet, whatever that is, and they will still gain weight. 

Their body just simply does different things with energy and energy storage and that there’s a high degree of just natural variability in humans. The discussion is that people who do maybe struggle with obesity or overweight are not eating more than regular people. They’re not doing anything bad to create this. It’s just their bodies. 

Stephanie: Yes. We have never been able to find any evidence that shows that fat people eat more than thin people. We’ve never. People try to prove it all the time, and it doesn’t work. That article that you’re citing right now is actually a pretty famous piece of research. It’s not new. Maybe this one is new. 

Dr. Lisa: The article came out, or at least I saw it recently. 

Stephanie: The research is older, and people went through a lot of efforts to keep that message from the public because still, this moral sense of “We can’t let people know because then, they’ll think it’s okay, right?”

Dr. Lisa: “They’ll bury their scales in their backyard. The anarchy.” 

Stephanie: Yes, yes. Just so much of it is not at all our nutrition, what we put in our bodies. So much of weight is based on genes, genetics, socioeconomic status, our relationships, our friendships, our fitness. Fitness is the biggest personal predictor, the biggest thing you can control to keep your health up. 

Nutrition plays an important but very, very small part in it. It doesn’t surprise me when I read things like this. Actually, we can’t find that fat people eat any differently than thin people. There are thin people who eat tons of junk food. There are fat people that eat tons of junk food. There are fat people who eat very healthy and exercise a ton. There are thin people who eat very healthily and exercise a ton. We can’t really find a difference in the… 

Dr. Lisa: Behavior, yeah.

Stephanie: A strong causality. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, and just to support what you’re saying, I will totally share this article with you. But citing research from a hundred years ago, stuff going on in World War II that this was coming out and just never gained traction. In agriculture, it was known that certain kinds of cows or other livestock just metabolized food differently, but it just never translated to humans. 

That’s so important because it goes back to that idea of morality, of virtue, of good and bad, the sense that, “I should look different, and I should make myself look different. If I can’t, that means something bad about me.” This anxiety that comes along with that, and what I’m hearing from you is like, “Just get off that bus!” 

Stephanie: Well, that’s, I think, one of the key components of Health at Every Size, is that the best way to improve the health of a population is to work towards creating a more fair and just world and reducing inequity. We have studies that show increased heart disease in immigrant populations. 

We were able to sort of prove or research was able to show that the only contributing factor here is the stress on this minority population. But we’re going to tell them, the information that we’re going to give them from the health organizations is that they need to eat less butter, right? 

It’s putting a personal responsibility on someone when it’s actually things like racism, and size stigma, and any type of marginalization are huge health hazards. As long as we keep it in this sphere of “It’s what you eat, and how much you exercise, and if you can’t maintain a weight, you’re lazy,” then we kind of ignore all of these other unjust components of our society. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, and how we’re all, in some way, personally responsible for creating that or maintaining that. I’m so glad that you’re bringing this up because there’s I think a positive way that it seems like, at least, in some ways, there has been some progress. Racism is still very much a thing, internalized racism, and the amount of stress that it creates for people of color, immigrants. 

I think it could be argued that discrimination of overweight people or fat-shaming is still widely accepted in a lot of ways. I think that people internalize, like we were talking about before, internalize that shame. They may experience hostility, or nasty comments, or lost opportunities, maybe assumptions made about them being a certain way that aren’t true. The level of stress, and anxiety, and pain that causes, that’s the real health consequence. 

Stephanie: Absolutely, and we know that different cultures and ethnicities have different sizes. People come in all different shapes and sizes. All this research that we have on obesity and all this stuff, it’s all on white people. All of the subjects in these tests are mostly for white populations. So everything is messed up, basically, is what I’m saying. 

In so many of these studies that link health problems to obesity, this is an important point people should know, fitness level was not accounted for in those studies. When fitness is accounted for, there’s virtually no link between weight and health. There’s a lot of misinformation. People are interested in publishing things that go along with what we already believe, and it’s very hard to challenge those belief systems, I think, because of how this has become such a moral issue. 

Love Your Body Now

Dr. Lisa: I hear you. Okay, so if I were to synthesize very complex and nuanced ideas into a few chunks, I’m hearing you say that step one is getting familiar and understanding the stories that we are telling ourselves, stories that we’ve inherited just as an observer, right? Then, that second piece is really beginning to challenge them with different kinds of information. Then, the next phase really is trying to move into a practice of acceptance, of self-acceptance. 

Then finally, just to ask, in your work with people, have you worked with people over the arc of this process where they are able to change their relationships with their bodies to the degree that they can say, “You know what? I love my body. I am so grateful for this body I have,” and have it be a positive thing? 

Stephanie: I think that my clients who experienced success become people who some days, they love their body, some days, they don’t think about it at all, some days, they may have an issue with their body creep back in again. But it’s much more along just the normal experience of our relationships with our bodies and not being obsessed with it. 

I think that success to me in this field is taking care of your body. That success, just taking care of it. There are a few other things that we work on like intuitive eating, and joyful movement, and along with the body acceptance piece. But I think that success in the end is like, “I’ve got this body. I have it. It is what it is, and here’s how I’m going to take care of it.”

Dr. Lisa: Yeah, and then, I would attach maybe to that too is, it’s worth taking care of, maybe potentially disconnect a little bit from the way it looks and to what it does. Because what I’m thinking about right now, having gone through two pregnancies, this experience of my body just starting to do all of these things automatically for me and for this baby that were in no way connected to me looking good, but to more like very useful in terms of: “I could do all this stuff!” Just being able to transport you from here to there. The physicality of movement is appreciating your body for breathing, and digesting food, and doing things. Yeah, it’s amazing. 

Stephanie: I think that the people that we know that have a more positive sense of their bodies are the people who are able to say, “Oh, I love my legs because they make me run fast,” or “I love my skin because it stretches when I am pregnant. That’s amazing.” Just understanding and being grateful for the functions of their body, and if we’re struggling with that, the answer is not to lose weight, right? 

The answer is to find things that we like or enjoy or in terms of movement and things like that that our bodies can do. That’s kind of the home run message, is how can you live the life you want right now in the body you have right now, given your current situation? Not that invisible finish, not that imaginary future day, but: “How can I be the healthiest I can right now in the body that I have right now?” 

Dr. Lisa: Yes, radical idea that perhaps, and this is a good message for everyone, that there is a path to being perfectly happy right now with normal ebbs and flows, where it is what it is, to find a path of gratitude and appreciation that is disconnected from your physical appearance and what that means, just being happy like, “This is it.” I love it. 

Thank you so much for sharing such a positive, empowering message. I’m sure that there are a lot of people who needed to hear this. It’s wonderful even for me to hear and think about. 

Just to share, the last time I was pregnant, I got a doctor who started giving me a lot of crap for gaining too much weight too quickly. I started to develop so much anxiety about what I was eating, and when do I eat, what do I eat, all that stuff, and weighing myself was not good. Then, my scale broke, and that was three years ago. I never got another scale, and it’s so interesting. Just that one data point that, especially women can get very weird about, it’s a non-issue. It doesn’t matter. 

Stephanie: It’s not even really measuring anything. I want to say too that there are many doctors, physicians, nutritionists, mental health professionals, dieticians even, who do follow this Health at Every Size approach. There are doctors that I know who have actually stopped weighing their patients altogether and just follow this paradigm shift, just shifting our thinking. 

Dr. Lisa: Yeah. Well, that’s wonderful and again, I think a message of empowerment is that if this is something that you’re working towards, to advocate for that, and find a doctor who is familiar with these ideas and who practice this Health at Every Size and to find that network of support for this. Wonderful. Again, thank you so much for sharing it, and I will include if you’d like to share more information about Health at Every Size in the show notes of this episode and some other resources that we can direct people to and go from there. 

Stephanie: Thank you so much, Lisa. I really enjoyed talking to you about this today. 

Dr. Lisa: Me too. This is a lot of fun. 

You can find links to the resources that Stephanie shared today during our talk on the post for this podcast, which is going to be growingself.com/love-your-body. Also, while you’re there, be sure to cruise over to the blog. We have other articles on our blog related to self-esteem, healthy relationships and a particularly fantastic article about what to do if you feel like you’re walking on eggshells with someone in a relationship and another article around body acceptance and Health at Any Size. 

It is all there for you at growingself.com. Come over, check it out, and in the meantime, I will be back in touch with you next week with another episode of The Love, Happiness, and Success Podcast, and let’s go out with some more Bnny. 

By the way, you guys, this whole album is fantastic. You should definitely check it out, Bnny. Bnny. All right, that’s all for today. Over and out, my friends. I will talk to you next week. Bye-bye.

[Outro music: Thaw by Bnny]